Buying advice... - Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 01:10 PM

Hey guys, I haven't been on the site ever since my dad sold the sti a few years ago. Some of you might know me from 3-4 years ago when you all used to meet at bullys. I was sort of an on-looker with my dad since I wasn't the one with the car but I have learned alot about them since then. At one point I was driving the STi almost daily so I can handle myself with a quick car un-like most people my age...

Basically I finally figure it's time to pick up a subaru of my own that I can track and autocross. I have been looking mainly in the 02-05 range. I am at a major toss up between getting an sti or getting a wrx. The price and availability of sti's is what I am most held back by. Also it won't be left stock, so if I did get a wrx most everything suspension wise would be addressed.

So what do you guys think? I am looking for a DD/Weekend Warrior. I love hatches but they are hard to find.

Dean · 2011-03-20, 02:32 PM

I would vote '05+ STI if you can afford it and drive it mostly stock for a year before making many mods.

a 2.5l WRX might be a good option for less $s, but if you plan to track it at all brake and transmission upgrades will quickly eat the $ delta to an STI.

If you are budgeting for Mods, keep a short block with Forged internals on the list because the stock internals will break eventually and not planning for it will be a big budget shock/breaker.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 02:37 PM

Yeah just seems like the premium for STI's insurance and sale price are the real shocker. So you wouldn't recommend a 02-03 bugeye for a starter DD and Auto-x'er?

It won't be track as much, maybe once or twice a year but auto x every event most likely. I have an idea of what I want to do first though, sways and some stiffer springs to keep everything tidy bod roll wise.

Kevin M · 2011-03-20, 03:05 PM

If you end up going with a WRX, don't do any major mods to it. Stick to bolt-on suspension stuff, Stage 2 on the engine, and maybe brakes. Making a WRX the performance and reliability equal of an STi costs more than buying one up front, so don't try to get too grand with it.

For what you want to do, an STi is clearly what you're looking for, but the entry price issue is understandable. Just use a WRX as a bridge to getting there when you can afford it in a few years.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 03:10 PM

I wouldnt dump money into a wrx for alot of reasons... I realized that for how much sti's are above wrx's, in the long run it would pay off to eat the extra 50 bucks or so a month and commit to an sti. As far as years, would 04 be a no no? 05 and 06 seem like my options.

Dean · 2011-03-20, 03:20 PM

There is nothing wrong with a 2l WRX or an '04 STI if that is what you have the budget for. I beat the snot out of an '02 WRX for years.

Spend less than you can afford would be my suggestion and save the extra for repairs or nestegg for the next purchase.

Only minor issues with the '04 STI, which I have, is the front wheel bearings and wheel clearance/sizes/options. The price difference is not typically much for the same mileage which is why I said '05+.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 03:51 PM

I see what you mean. I will have to check into my bank and credit unions to see what I can handle for an sti vs wrx.

As for issues, what mileage would be too high? I am coming from the other side of the spectrum (rock crawling jeep) where mileage can be anything really. What should I except to go wrong?

Dean · 2011-03-20, 04:26 PM

In general, any Subaru forced induction engine can expect to need a rebuild between 100-150K or sooner if modded.

Front wheel bearings on anything but an '05+ STI fail somewhere along the line. Nissan bearing replacement with good grease lasts longer. 5MTs may fail if you beat them or last forever if you are nice to them.

Struts wear out.

If you plan for $1000/year maintenance above oil & such you are probably pretty well off when stuff goes wrong. They really are pretty damn reliable.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

In general, any Subaru forced induction engine can expect to need a rebuild between 100-150K or sooner if modded.

Front wheel bearings on anything but an '05+ STI fail somewhere along the line. Nissan bearing replacement with good grease lasts longer. 5MTs may fail if you beat them or last forever if you are nice to them.

Struts wear out.

If you plan for $1000/year maintenance above oil & such you are probably pretty well off when stuff goes wrong. They really are pretty damn reliable.

That's another thing for me is the 5MT, having that 6th gear would just be much more cherry for highway driving.

Kevin M · 2011-03-20, 08:48 PM

Actually, 6th gear in an STi is about the same as 5th in a WRX.

Dean · 2011-03-20, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Actually, 6th gear in an STi is about the same as 5th in a WRX.

That is totally untrue. The STi cruises at least 3-400RPM lower in top gear. Might be more like 500 but it has been a while since I road tripped with Sue and compared.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-20, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Actually, 6th gear in an STi is about the same as 5th in a WRX.

If this was true that would help me decide quite a bit...

Dean · 2011-03-20, 10:29 PM

2002 WRX:
Gear Ratios
1 : 3.454:1
2 : 1.947:1
3 : 1.366:1
4 : 0.972:1
5 : 0.738:1
Final drive : 3.9:1

2004 STI:
1st: 3.636
2nd: 2.375
3rd: 1.761
4th:1.346
5th:0.971
6th: 0.756
Final drive : 3.9:1

So My STI is 2.4% higher ratio than my WRX was if I have the right ratios and did the math right, so I was high in my estimate.

Still, That should be 72RPM at 3000RPM and basically 100 at 4000. Doesn't seem like much but I sure noticed the drop when I changed cars. The WRX just sounded like it was whining down the road at 70+.

What is interesting is how 5MT 4th is almost identical to 6MT 3rd.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-21, 07:34 AM

Doesn't seem like a huge difference...

On our 07 we has kw v3's and some big sways. I liked how it handled but it got brutal on streets sometimes. Would some decent struts and springs be okay?

renosubby · 2011-03-21, 08:50 AM

what is your price range

sperry · 2011-03-21, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

2002 WRX:
Gear Ratios
1 : 3.454:1
2 : 1.947:1
3 : 1.366:1
4 : 0.972:1
5 : 0.738:1
Final drive : 3.9:1

2004 STI:
1st: 3.636
2nd: 2.375
3rd: 1.761
4th:1.346
5th:0.971
6th: 0.756
Final drive : 3.9:1

So My STI is 2.4% higher ratio than my WRX was if I have the right ratios and did the math right, so I was high in my estimate.

Still, That should be 72RPM at 3000RPM and basically 100 at 4000. Doesn't seem like much but I sure noticed the drop when I changed cars. The WRX just sounded like it was whining down the road at 70+.

What is interesting is how 5MT 4th is almost identical to 6MT 3rd.

Huh?

Since when is 0.972:1 "almost identical" to 1.761:1?

Did you mean the 5MT's 4th compared to the 6MT's 5th? 'Cause that's the whole point of the 6MT... is was *never* related to fuel savings while cruising... the top 2 gears in both boxes are supposed to be nearly the same.

The 6MT adds an extra gear down low to allow you to stay in the boost better when rallying under 100mph. The point of the 6MT is to add acceleration on the low end, not fuel savings on the top end.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-21, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by renosubby

what is your price range

It all depends, but i'd like to go below 20k

cody · 2011-03-21, 12:59 PM

Bought my bugeye new. Went Stage II with custom tune at around 60K miles. I now have 130K miles on it. It's been nothing but dependable. I've had one front and one rear wheel bearing go out on me. That's about it for failures though. The turbo inlet pipe was my fault. I've autocrossed it for 5 years. I got 2nd place in PAX last year and sometimes I even beat similarly moded STi's in raw time (that's a new development as of last year though).

Love everything about my car including the gas milage. 2.0 L FTW. Make sure you get one manufactured in late 2002 (MY 03) or after so you get the stronger gears.

I've had the following suspension setups and though my current one is the best with regard to comfort and performance, they were all great.

1st Eibach Prokit Springs (wagon specific FWIW (nothing)) with KYB AGX struts - Ok
2nd Crucial Springs with KYB AGX struts - noticeably better
3rd Crucial Springs with Koni Yellow inserts in wagon doner struts - the best

100_Percent_Juice · 2011-03-21, 04:14 PM

Just buy my car.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-21, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cody

Bought my bugeye new. Went Stage II with custom tune at around 60K miles. I now have 130K miles on it. It's been nothing but dependable. I've had one front and one rear wheel bearing go out on me. That's about it for failures though. The turbo inlet pipe was my fault. I've autocrossed it for 5 years. I got 2nd place in PAX last year and sometimes I even beat similarly moded STi's in raw time (that's a new development as of last year though).

Love everything about my car including the gas milage. 2.0 L FTW. Make sure you get one manufactured in late 2002 (MY 03) or after so you get the stronger gears.

I've had the following suspension setups and though my current one is the best with regard to comfort and performance, they were all great.

1st Eibach Prokit Springs (wagon specific FWIW (nothing)) with KYB AGX struts - Ok
2nd Crucial Springs with KYB AGX struts - noticeably better
3rd Crucial Springs with Koni Yellow inserts in wagon doner struts - the best

This is honestly exactly what I want to hear. Thanks for a good post mang.

So your saying that 2.5 v 2.0 it would work better to have the 2.0 for DD duty?

Kevin M · 2011-03-21, 05:18 PM

Hahaha, no way. Cody is very, very diligent about maintenance, he studies potential mods very carefully and frankly, he's had good luck. Unless you can buy a car with a background as good as his, don't count on having a worry-free 2.0 liter. There's really no advantage to them other than a slight gas mileage advantage (and I mean slight, less than 10% at regular cruise in most cases).

cody · 2011-03-21, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Hahaha, no way. Cody is very, very diligent about maintenance, he studies potential mods very carefully and frankly, he's had good luck. Unless you can buy a car with a background as good as his, don't count on having a worry-free 2.0 liter. There's really no advantage to them other than a slight gas mileage advantage (and I mean slight, less than 10% at regular cruise in most cases).

I don't disagree with any of this, except that the 2.5L is much more prone to ringland (piston) failure due to knock. This means a really good conservative tune becomes even more important with a 2.5L than it is with the 2L.

cody · 2011-03-21, 05:33 PM

If you can swing it, get the STi. There's an extremely long list of people that bought, modified, and then took a big loss on a WRX so they could buy an STi. The 2.5L is worth it for the extra power and the 6 speed is bullet proof just in case you decide to every go big. You can make a WRX faster than a stock STi easily and cheaply, but once you factor in the brakes, drivetrain, and other minor upgrades, the STi makes more sense for anyone thinking of modifying and/or racing a Subaru.

Unfortunately most older WRX's have been beat on. But if you could find one that has been properly driven and cared for, and don't go beyond stage II, you should be set for less money than an STi.

SpenceTi · 2011-03-21, 06:34 PM

I hear ya.

I met up with rory today and looked at his 07 wrx wagon and loved it. So if all goes well I will have it by the weekend

Kevin M · 2011-03-21, 07:19 PM

Nice!

2011-03-20, 01:10 PM	#1
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	Buying advice... Hey guys, I haven't been on the site ever since my dad sold the sti a few years ago. Some of you might know me from 3-4 years ago when you all used to meet at bullys. I was sort of an on-looker with my dad since I wasn't the one with the car but I have learned alot about them since then. At one point I was driving the STi almost daily so I can handle myself with a quick car un-like most people my age... Basically I finally figure it's time to pick up a subaru of my own that I can track and autocross. I have been looking mainly in the 02-05 range. I am at a major toss up between getting an sti or getting a wrx. The price and availability of sti's is what I am most held back by. Also it won't be left stock, so if I did get a wrx most everything suspension wise would be addressed. So what do you guys think? I am looking for a DD/Weekend Warrior. I love hatches but they are hard to find. __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-20, 02:32 PM	#2
Dean Señor Cheap Bastarde Real Name: Dean Join Date: May 2003 Location: $99 Tire Store Posts: 9,294 Car: $.04 STI Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.	I would vote '05+ STI if you can afford it and drive it mostly stock for a year before making many mods. a 2.5l WRX might be a good option for less $s, but if you plan to track it at all brake and transmission upgrades will quickly eat the $ delta to an STI. If you are budgeting for Mods, keep a short block with Forged internals on the list because the stock internals will break eventually and not planning for it will be a big budget shock/breaker. __________________ I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...

2011-03-20, 02:37 PM	#3
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	Yeah just seems like the premium for STI's insurance and sale price are the real shocker. So you wouldn't recommend a 02-03 bugeye for a starter DD and Auto-x'er? It won't be track as much, maybe once or twice a year but auto x every event most likely. I have an idea of what I want to do first though, sways and some stiffer springs to keep everything tidy bod roll wise. __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-20, 03:05 PM	#4
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	If you end up going with a WRX, don't do any major mods to it. Stick to bolt-on suspension stuff, Stage 2 on the engine, and maybe brakes. Making a WRX the performance and reliability equal of an STi costs more than buying one up front, so don't try to get too grand with it. For what you want to do, an STi is clearly what you're looking for, but the entry price issue is understandable. Just use a WRX as a bridge to getting there when you can afford it in a few years. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2011-03-20, 03:10 PM	#5
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	I wouldnt dump money into a wrx for alot of reasons... I realized that for how much sti's are above wrx's, in the long run it would pay off to eat the extra 50 bucks or so a month and commit to an sti. As far as years, would 04 be a no no? 05 and 06 seem like my options. __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-20, 03:20 PM	#6
Dean Señor Cheap Bastarde Real Name: Dean Join Date: May 2003 Location: $99 Tire Store Posts: 9,294 Car: $.04 STI Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.	There is nothing wrong with a 2l WRX or an '04 STI if that is what you have the budget for. I beat the snot out of an '02 WRX for years. Spend less than you can afford would be my suggestion and save the extra for repairs or nestegg for the next purchase. Only minor issues with the '04 STI, which I have, is the front wheel bearings and wheel clearance/sizes/options. The price difference is not typically much for the same mileage which is why I said '05+. __________________ I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...

2011-03-20, 03:51 PM	#7
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	I see what you mean. I will have to check into my bank and credit unions to see what I can handle for an sti vs wrx. As for issues, what mileage would be too high? I am coming from the other side of the spectrum (rock crawling jeep) where mileage can be anything really. What should I except to go wrong? __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-20, 04:26 PM	#8
Dean Señor Cheap Bastarde Real Name: Dean Join Date: May 2003 Location: $99 Tire Store Posts: 9,294 Car: $.04 STI Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.	In general, any Subaru forced induction engine can expect to need a rebuild between 100-150K or sooner if modded. Front wheel bearings on anything but an '05+ STI fail somewhere along the line. Nissan bearing replacement with good grease lasts longer. 5MTs may fail if you beat them or last forever if you are nice to them. Struts wear out. If you plan for $1000/year maintenance above oil & such you are probably pretty well off when stuff goes wrong. They really are pretty damn reliable. __________________ I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids... Last edited by Dean; 2011-03-20 at 04:29 PM.

2011-03-20, 08:48 PM	#10
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	Actually, 6th gear in an STi is about the same as 5th in a WRX. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2011-03-20, 10:29 PM	#13
Dean Señor Cheap Bastarde Real Name: Dean Join Date: May 2003 Location: $99 Tire Store Posts: 9,294 Car: $.04 STI Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.	2002 WRX: Gear Ratios 1 : 3.454:1 2 : 1.947:1 3 : 1.366:1 4 : 0.972:1 5 : 0.738:1 Final drive : 3.9:1 2004 STI: 1st: 3.636 2nd: 2.375 3rd: 1.761 4th:1.346 5th:0.971 6th: 0.756 Final drive : 3.9:1 So My STI is 2.4% higher ratio than my WRX was if I have the right ratios and did the math right, so I was high in my estimate. Still, That should be 72RPM at 3000RPM and basically 100 at 4000. Doesn't seem like much but I sure noticed the drop when I changed cars. The WRX just sounded like it was whining down the road at 70+. What is interesting is how 5MT 4th is almost identical to 6MT 3rd. __________________ I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids... Last edited by Dean; 2011-03-20 at 10:37 PM.

2011-03-21, 07:34 AM	#14
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	Doesn't seem like a huge difference... On our 07 we has kw v3's and some big sways. I liked how it handled but it got brutal on streets sometimes. Would some decent struts and springs be okay? __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-21, 08:50 AM	#15
renosubby RIP Real Name: Cory Schander Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 163 Car: 2006 STI Class: SM Never dwell on the past, It fucks your future!	what is your price range __________________ *MAYHEM TUNING* 2006 CGM STI 570WHP 539WTQ 10.6 At 136MPH Sacramento

2011-03-21, 12:59 PM	#18
cody Candy Mountain Real Name: Cody Join Date: May 2005 Location: Californication Posts: 7,751 Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink! Class: TESP OMG Internet!	Bought my bugeye new. Went Stage II with custom tune at around 60K miles. I now have 130K miles on it. It's been nothing but dependable. I've had one front and one rear wheel bearing go out on me. That's about it for failures though. The turbo inlet pipe was my fault. I've autocrossed it for 5 years. I got 2nd place in PAX last year and sometimes I even beat similarly moded STi's in raw time (that's a new development as of last year though). Love everything about my car including the gas milage. 2.0 L FTW. Make sure you get one manufactured in late 2002 (MY 03) or after so you get the stronger gears. I've had the following suspension setups and though my current one is the best with regard to comfort and performance, they were all great. 1st Eibach Prokit Springs (wagon specific FWIW (nothing)) with KYB AGX struts - Ok 2nd Crucial Springs with KYB AGX struts - noticeably better 3rd Crucial Springs with Koni Yellow inserts in wagon doner struts - the best __________________ Slow and low, that is the tempo.

2011-03-21, 04:14 PM	#19
100_Percent_Juice (40 percent vodka) Real Name: Joel Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 4,446 Car: 2004WRX Class: Baby-Hauler/GroceryGetter	Just buy my car. __________________ "A power nap is when you sleep on someone who is weaker than you." - Dimitri Martin

2011-03-21, 05:18 PM	#21
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	Hahaha, no way. Cody is very, very diligent about maintenance, he studies potential mods very carefully and frankly, he's had good luck. Unless you can buy a car with a background as good as his, don't count on having a worry-free 2.0 liter. There's really no advantage to them other than a slight gas mileage advantage (and I mean slight, less than 10% at regular cruise in most cases). __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2011-03-21, 05:33 PM	#23
cody Candy Mountain Real Name: Cody Join Date: May 2005 Location: Californication Posts: 7,751 Car: 03 Pussy Wagon, now with more pink! Class: TESP OMG Internet!	If you can swing it, get the STi. There's an extremely long list of people that bought, modified, and then took a big loss on a WRX so they could buy an STi. The 2.5L is worth it for the extra power and the 6 speed is bullet proof just in case you decide to every go big. You can make a WRX faster than a stock STi easily and cheaply, but once you factor in the brakes, drivetrain, and other minor upgrades, the STi makes more sense for anyone thinking of modifying and/or racing a Subaru. Unfortunately most older WRX's have been beat on. But if you could find one that has been properly driven and cared for, and don't go beyond stage II, you should be set for less money than an STi. __________________ Slow and low, that is the tempo. Last edited by cody; 2011-03-21 at 05:38 PM.

2011-03-21, 06:34 PM	#24
SpenceTi EJ18 Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 34 Car: 07 Stage 2 WRX Class: ESP slow in fast out	I hear ya. I met up with rory today and looked at his 07 wrx wagon and loved it. So if all goes well I will have it by the weekend __________________ "Slow is the new fast"

2011-03-21, 07:19 PM	#25
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	Nice! __________________ FWD is the new AWD

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