The gods honest truth about grounding systems...

[dayofpain]

So with all the numnuts on nasioc saying that companies like sun enterprises, apexi, and buddy club are all big fat liars. I decided it was time to conduct a test. The biggest reason for these tests is because of what some IDIOT said on nasioc, to some poor noob. He was a moderator that told him that, "your car has a voltage regulator, its on the alternator." I wanted to scream at him, yeah its got a turbo too you idiot. Go tell that to all the other people that want a bigger one.

The test:
Do grounding systems work ?
Does the Kragen ground work better,worse or the same as the kits that are offered?
Do the voltage stabilizer systems work ? why ?

Test car: My 05 Sti...


Tests...

1. resistance to ground on the four ground points easily accessible in the engine bay.
2. voltage seen @ the ecu. running and not running.
3. voltage seen @ the battery. running and not running.

All resistances are measured in ohms. All other test in volts unless noted otherwise.


Stock:

1. a. driver side body : .7 ohms
b. driver side intake manifold: .6 ohms
c. passenger side body: .3
d. passenger side intake manifold: .8 ohms

2. 11.4 / 12.7

3. 12.1 / 13.3

Buddy Club Condensor/ grounding Kit:

1. a. driver side body : .1
b. driver side intake manifold : .05
c. passenger side body : .2
d. passenger side intake manifold : .05

2. 12.5 / 14.2

3. 12.6 / 14.3

Kragen version (using rediculous size wire)

1. a. driver side body : .2
b. driver side intake manifold : .3
c. passenger side body : .4
d. passenger side intake manifold : .3

2. 11.4 / 12.7

3. 12.1 / 13.4

Buddy Club grounding kit.

1. a. driver side body : .1
b. driver side intake manifold : .05
c. passenger side body : .3 (this kit doesnt make contact here)
d. passenger side intake manifold : .05

2. 11.5 / 12.8

3. 12.1 / 13.6


Conclusion:

Soooo.

Do grounding systems work ? Yes
Does the Kragen ground work better,worse or the same as the kits that are offered? Kragen = worse. Why? I dont have the means to test.
Do the voltage stabilizer systems work ? Yes. Why? They are much better designed than the factory units. More condensors and more capacitors. its the American way. Bigger = better.

The BIG question?

Did it add more power?

Lol I dont know, I dont have a dyno in my arse! The placebo effect says yes though!







REASON FOR CHOOSING BUDDY CLUB.

Simple I couldnt afford the apexi kit. After comparison of the two kits, The apexi looks better but I think the buddy club is designed better. Apexi has 3 condensors, Buddy Club uses 4. never know though, it might be over kill.Same wire included with both, only color differences and price are the remaining factors.

Buddy Club.... 149 (blue wires, black body, no bracket, blue led, 4 condensors)
Apexi... 179 (dark grey wires, silver body, red led, no bracket, 3 condensors)
Sun.... 229 (blue wires, red led, bracket included, 2 condensors, (measured by weight unknown for sure)) Also sun doesnt come with ground wires.

[Dean]

I'd love to see numbers with only the condenser.

Other questions...

Does the ECU really want to see more voltage? if allof it's logic is based on the factory regulator...

More voltage at the battery could equal overcharging and thus shorter battery life.

[dayofpain]

overcharging on a 12 volt system would occur @ around 16 volts, (in our cars, IE wrx and sti) however more consistent charging would equal longer battery life. Also the Buddyclub condensor comes with the extra 3 grounding wires. Thus no run with condensor alone. Heres some dyno numbers if you DONT think that buddy club/ apexi / sun are big fat liars.


http://www.first-inc.co.jp/buddyclub/top_m.html

[MikeK]

Wow, good job Phil!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by dayofpain

overcharging on a 12 volt system would occur @ around 16 volts, however more consistent charging would equal longer battery life. Also the Buddyclub condensor comes with the extra 3 grounding wires. Thus no run with condensor alone. Heres some dyno numbers if you DONT think that buddy club/ apexi / sun are big fat liars.

As I recall from my Battery research, you can start outgassing and overcharging before 16 volts... Voltage is not important up to 95+% charge or so, but once a wet Lead Acid battery hits full charge, you don't want to feed it much more than 13 volts to avoid excessive gassing and possible plate damage.

I wonder how much of that power can be attributed to the condenser/regulator... I'd bet it is close to 100% of it. To bad many of us can't use it in our Autocross classes.

What we need is some monster diodes that allow huge amonts of current out of the battery, but a real smart charger, preferably with soem pulse-anti-sulfating technology on the charging side.

Where are those LEDs Shawn was going to use when you need them. \

Forgot to mention... Thanks for the cool data. Good work.

[sperry]

Nice work Phil!

I would hope that a cleaner grounding setup would provide more consistant data to the ECU as well as better spark at the plugs.

My only question is, do those reduced resistances really help the car? Is that really "a lot" better than stock? I can understand the kits probably help stuff like audio equipment w/ fidelity, but what about motor performance? Of course Buddy Club's chart will show an improvement... that's marketing. What I want to know is if you or I will notice anything either seat-of-the-pants, or in lap times.

[Dean]

I think what the graph shows is that at higher RPM, the lower stock regulated voltage may not be providing enough zing to the ignition system. At least that is my guess. the lower resistance mught help overcome that some, but I think the higher overall voltage is the key with the condenser/regulator.

[dayofpain]

alot of the sensors in the subaru are through resistance grounding. ie. current goes through a sensor and the ecu monitors the resistance to ground. so by getting things as close as we can to zero, the ecu will be more accurate. a few things to mention. i made sure to NOT disconnect the negative battery terminal when i did this. I didnt want an ecu reset to contribute to my placebo effect. yes i still noticed a difference. again i reiterate though that i have no dyno in my arse. i cannot prove it, nor do i care to. i ran a few other random tests just for shits and grins.

total amperage draw with all systems off, but engine runing. was : 38 amps.

total amperage draw lights on stereo on, NO AC: 56 amps.

total amperage draw everything on including AC : 73 amps. when the second radiator fan came on, I exceded 76 amps.

NOTE, the factory alternator is GENEROUSLY rated @ 75 amps. I dont think that thing could make 75 amps continously for more than a few minutes before smoking the voltage regulator.

At a higher rpm the stock regulator falls on its face. So yes the big gain if there is any, was at the top end on buddy clubs little graph.



HOWEVER: TO SCOTT!

dont be from nasioc. dont be like everyone else. If that graph is IN ANY WAY FALSE FROM THEIR ACTUAL TESTING. It is fraud. Thats it, the whole world isnt out to seduce people and get them to buy stuff. Buddy club is a large company, just like Apexi. Speaking for them, I hope; they wouldnt fuggin stupid enough to fake a performance graph in order to sell 10 more units. Its not worth it. For anyone.


Before I ran any of these test I cleaned the stock ground points, cause a few members have suggested that the bad factory grounds are due to them not scraping enough paint from the body, or not deep enough into the manifold. so i was sure to clean before I ran the tests. I didnt want to hear that cop out. That I could just clean the grounds and get the same effect. Cleaning the grounds wont provide more capacitance.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by Dean

As I recall from my Battery research, you can start outgassing and overcharging before 16 volts... Voltage is not important up to 95+% charge or so, but once a wet Lead Acid battery hits full charge, you don't want to feed it much more than 13 volts to avoid excessive gassing and possible plate damage.

I wonder how much of that power can be attributed to the condenser/regulator... I'd bet it is close to 100% of it. To bad many of us can't use it in our Autocross classes.

What we need is some monster diodes that allow huge amonts of current out of the battery, but a real smart charger, preferably with soem pulse-anti-sulfating technology on the charging side.

Where are those LEDs Shawn was going to use when you need them. \

Forgot to mention... Thanks for the cool data. Good work.

I should have said on our cars, IE wrx and sti. they will never sit @ 95% charged. even with everything off and the engine running the battery wont get to 90%. unless it gets to 16 volts. I have a mess of data from all this. I measured dam near everything. heh. Also diodes increase resistance. That would be bad.

That sucks that you cant use in autox. what class does it put you into ?

[Dean]

As I recall, you end up in Street Modified. I don't think it is permitted in Street Prepared, or Street Touring, so you can't do it. I think it is OK in prepared, and of course Modified as well.

Lets just say only those running uncompetitively in TSM can do it of the bunch of us.

Oh, and my concern on gassing was on a road trip, or somehting over a couple hour drive. I would think that unless the lights were on, the battery should get to a full charge in an hour or two...

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by Dean

As I recall, you end up in Street Modified. I don't think it is permitted in Street Prepared, or Street Touring, so you can't do it. I think it is OK in prepared, and of course Modified as well.

Lets just say only those running uncompetitively in TSM can do it of the bunch of us.

Oh, and my concern on gassing was on a road trip, or somehting over a couple hour drive. I would think that unless the lights were on, the battery should get to a full charge in an hour or two...

hmmmm, possible, i have a way to figure it though. it will have to be done on another night. im all tested out. ;P

[Dean]

Originally Posted by dayofpain

alot of the sensors in the subaru are through resistance grounding. ie. current goes through a sensor and the ecu monitors the resistance to ground. so by getting things as close as we can to zero, the ecu will be more accurate.

I was thinking about this some more... And assuming the base maps, for everything are based on the stock grounding resistance, better grouding may cause those maps to be off. Take the MAS, or 02 sensor for example. A better reading might well confuse the ECU, at least with stock maps. I wonder if the car actuaally feels stronger because it has leaned out ever so slightly?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dayofpain

HOWEVER: TO SCOTT!

dont be from nasioc. dont be like everyone else. If that graph is IN ANY WAY FALSE FROM THEIR ACTUAL TESTING. It is fraud. Thats it, the whole world isnt out to seduce people and get them to buy stuff. Buddy club is a large company, just like Apexi. Speaking for them, I hope; they wouldnt fuggin stupid enough to fake a performance graph in order to sell 10 more units. Its not worth it. For anyone.

I'm not actually suggesting they're just making something up, but there is something to be said about independant testing... which is exactly what you're doing. My point is that the vendor of a product is going to spin what they can in their favor. And a lot of places will go to the very edge of fraud, and a few will even go blatenly over the line... even the "big" guys, since there's a very good chance no one will ever be able to call them on it.

What I'm saying is that the results you found are very interesting, and I'm convinced that the grounding kits do actually do something, I'm just not sure exactly what that something translates to in the real world. Ohms and Amps are great and all, but will I be faster because of them?

On an aside regarding that graph... I guarentee that's not a real dyno chart. That's something the marketing people drew up to match their dyno results. Real charts are never that pretty or that smooth. Plus there's no associated data like the dyno used, the other mods on the car, the test conditions, etc. It may not be fraudulent, but it's certainly not useful test data. What if the car they tested that on had the A/C removed, or some other battery, or other various mods... hell, is the car even an Impreza? What if those are the results of that kit on a turbo'd Integra?

I'm not trying to be a NASIOC asshole or anything, I'm just trying to call it as it is... you've got real data taken under what I'd consider to be sme pretty good testing conditions that show these grounding kits do make a difference... and we've got some pretty good speculation that a car re-tuned for the more accurate grounding should run at least smoother, if not faster as well. All I'm saying is that we're still missing the complete circle: real world results. Not a big deal, as those will come with time.

[Kevin M]

What Scott said. Dynos lie more than politicians and lawyers (imagine if a politician was using one!) as I have clearly demonstrated in the past.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm not actually suggesting they're just making something up, but there is something to be said about independant testing... which is exactly what you're doing. My point is that the vendor of a product is going to spin what they can in their favor. And a lot of places will go to the very edge of fraud, and a few will even go blatenly over the line... even the "big" guys, since there's a very good chance no one will ever be able to call them on it.

What I'm saying is that the results you found are very interesting, and I'm convinced that the grounding kits do actually do something, I'm just not sure exactly what that something translates to in the real world. Ohms and Amps are great and all, but will I be faster because of them?

On an aside regarding that graph... I guarentee that's not a real dyno chart. That's something the marketing people drew up to match their dyno results. Real charts are never that pretty or that smooth. Plus there's no associated data like the dyno used, the other mods on the car, the test conditions, etc. It may not be fraudulent, but it's certainly not useful test data. What if the car they tested that on had the A/C removed, or some other battery, or other various mods... hell, is the car even an Impreza? What if those are the results of that kit on a turbo'd Integra?

I'm not trying to be a NASIOC asshole or anything, I'm just trying to call it as it is... you've got real data taken under what I'd consider to be sme pretty good testing conditions that show these grounding kits do make a difference... and we've got some pretty good speculation that a car re-tuned for the more accurate grounding should run at least smoother, if not faster as well. All I'm saying is that we're still missing the complete circle: real world results. Not a big deal, as those will come with time.

yeah i used to have an attitude similar that if it cant be proven then i dont want anything to do with it. i think im getting either trusting in my old age, or i am just getting complacent with the fact that a company making an extra 100 bucks on me isnt worth the bankruptcy. and that everyone isnt out to get me. even though most of them are...

yeah for sure it isnt a real dyno graph, but it has been illustrated to represent one. therefore there probably is one, somewhere. also if you use the link and just click on pictures as there are very few english subtitles, you see that graph marked as impreza gdb.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

What Scott said. Dynos lie more than politicians and lawyers (imagine if a politician was using one!) as I have clearly demonstrated in the past.

hell yeah brother, however still is fraud.

but speaking of that shit, i used the dyno at my old work, in let us say a very intresting way. If you imput the rpm multiplier incorrectly then relabel after youre done.... well you can imagine the results.

i think it was 1013hp to the ground on my bike with over 800 ft-lbs of torque. i dam near shit myself till i realized it was still set up for a shifter kart.

[ShawnS]

Originally Posted by Dean

Where are those LEDs Shawn was going to use when you need them. \

I will have plenty left over!

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by dayofpain

hell yeah brother, however still is fraud.

Well, not necessarily. I would say that in the case of intake testing, or ground cable testing, or testing of any other small upgrade, you can always get a "legitimate" run or two that shows a gain with no intentional tweaking of the system, especially with the way Subarus are. One vendor in particular was testing a kit with a large turbo on a client car. The car was making the expected power (about 340 to the wheels) on race gas during tuning. They continued to do runs and make tweaks and after a while, power started inexplicably climbing... 350... 360.. 370... eventually hitting 380 to the wheels! Turned out the fuel pump was going bad, and the car was making power as AFRs got dangerously lean. 40 extra horses through no action of the dyno operator.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Well, not necessarily. I would say that in the case of intake testing, or ground cable testing, or testing of any other small upgrade, you can always get a "legitimate" run or two that shows a gain with no intentional tweaking of the system, especially with the way Subarus are. One vendor in particular was testing a kit with a large turbo on a client car. The car was making the expected power (about 340 to the wheels) on race gas during tuning. They continued to do runs and make tweaks and after a while, power started inexplicably climbing... 350... 360.. 370... eventually hitting 380 to the wheels! Turned out the fuel pump was going bad, and the car was making power as AFRs got dangerously lean. 40 extra horses through no action of the dyno operator.

still fraud...

if they discover that the reading were the result of another failing part. then they publish the runs as gains typically seen by the part. then they knew it was false and therfore fraud. theres no way to argue the semantics about it. its still fraud. there will be much debate about whether or not they will get away with it, or whether or not they will even be challenged. but either way they slice it. its still fraud. just because the dyno operator is in the clear, doesnt mean the company is.

[Dean]

Wow, is this what Scott and I sound(read) like when we bicker about stuff? My deepest appologies to all of you...

[tysonK]

Originally Posted by Dean

Wow, is this what Scott and I sound(read) like when we bicker about stuff? My deepest appologies to all of you...

Kinda, but it makes for good point-counter-point information.