SVX suspension, Attn: sybir!

[sperry]

Okay, with all the suspension threads lately, I've gotten to thinking about the suspension on the SVX. I'm "attning" Aaron, since I think he's gone down this route before on the BattleWagon.

My struts are blown (in fact the LF strut is starting to make evil noises), and my topmounts are probably pretty close to worn out, considering my car's got over 200k miles on it now. Also, once the 5MT is swapped in there, I'm going to need to lower the front a bit to even out the car once the ligher tranny is installed.

So, there are basically 2 popular options:

stock struts + stock topmounts + lowering springs:

People tend to think that the OEM struts are a little over-damped for the stock springs, so it's no big deal to go with a little stiffer/lower spring. I should get a bit of better performance, w/o losing the comfy ride.


stock strut housings + Koni SA inserts + GC spring perches + eibach springs + stock topmounts or GC pillowballs:

This is essentially what I've got on the WRX, though the SVX version wouldn't use quite as stiff a spring. The problem is that there is only one Koni insert available (and it's special order) for the SVX strut housing, and it's designed for autocross-able spring rates. So, while I'd love the handling of a nice stiff SVX, this is my daily driver, and I need it to work in the snow. I'm afraid that the spring rates I'd go with would be outside the range of the Koni's for proper damping, and that I'd end up with a way over-damped strut.


So... I'm actually trying to come up with a third solution:

stock struts + stock topmounts + GC spring perches + eibach springs:

I think this will give me the stock-like ride that I want, plus allow me to adjust the ride height so I can a) even the car out after the tranny swap and b) raise the height overall in the winter for snow (actually, the SVX is so damn low at stock height, last winter I was hitting the exhaust on the ice! So hopefully I can go higher than stock.)

Anyway: I'd like opinions on these options, especially on the third "hybrid" option of using the stock stuts with the GC perches. Will I end up destroying the stock struts too quickly with the non-stock ride height and spring rates? How hard is it to get/install the GC perches on an oddball strut like the stock SVX struts? Would the Koni route actually be better, even if I'm overdamped?

Also, for cost reference here are the parts prices off SubaruParts.com:

$72.02 - 20320PA011 - Front TopMount (priced each)
$84.96 - 20361PA000 - Right Rear TopMount
$84.96 - 20361PA010 - Left Rear TopMount
$99.02 - 20311PA001 - Right Front Strut
$99.02 - 20311PA011 - Left Front Strut
$114.26 - 20360PA001 - Right Rear Strut
$114.26 - 20360PA011 - Left Rear Strut

So all the configurations would cost $313.96 for topmounts. The stock struts would cost $426.56 new, while the Konis are more like $700+ for a set (I don't know the current price or availablility of the SVX insert). I also don't know the cost of the GC perch + eibach springs, vs. some lowering springs. I'm guessing that the full Koni/GC setup will be quite a bit more than the other two options.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I'll take "Messing with the street car isn't a good idea for my bank statement" for $1000 please, Alex.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I'll take "Messing with the street car isn't a good idea for my bank statement" for $1000 please, Alex.

So you think it's cheaper just to let the suspension fail?

[sybir]

GC setups run ~400, unless you start getting into weird progressive stuff, tender springs, etc, which are nice options, but not required.

I would honestly go with the 3rd option; the only tough spot is going to be determining optimal rates and lengths, but we can go from the recommended setup on the AX setup and extrapolate a bit from there. Going with something in the low 300's is probably the way to go to keep the front end up while still keeping some decent ride quality; for that matter, I have some 315lb progressive 9" coils that you can use as an alternative.

I think the Koni setup is way overkill. I didn't blow my stock struts until I put the 450lb springs on and slammed the car. Given how low the SVX sits stock, you're not going to be eating into tons of your travel to get it down to a reasonable height.

I don't know enough about aftermarket lowering springs for the SVX to make a recommendation there, but I will tell you the GC's have high points and low points. They're infinitely adjustable for ride height, and use standard springs, so the options are there. On a non-inverted strut, they were pretty quiet, without a lot of the clunking you normally associate with GC setups (like my current one )

When set up right, like my old setup (the one that went into DZ's car, then Matt's bugeye, then his new wagon) it's a totally streetable setup, comfortable on long trips, that can get down and boogie in the corners. The progressive springs help a lot with that.

I'll bullshit more with you in person, so we can all see Tracy's eyes roll back in her head

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

So you think it's cheaper just to let the suspension fail?

Probably.

[sperry]

I'm on GC website, but I can't find anything specific to the SVX... what's the procedure for figuring out what's needed? Do the fellas over there know enough to figure out what I need, or will I have to get some stock SVX struts and take a bunch of measurements?

As far as the rates go. People are running 380F/325R on the Koni/GC setup. I just found that the stock spring rates are 140F/110R... which is rediculously soft! So now I'm wondering if the stock struts will be able to damper the 250F/215R rates I was leaning towards.

It looks like the two available dampers out there (stock & Koni) are too far apart to handle what I'm looking to do... it's a shame KYB doesn't make an AGX for my car. I wonder how hard it is to swap over to WRX knuckles? Then I'd be able to make some WRX suspension bits work, and share wheels w/ my other car. Plus I already got a set of rear WRX knuckels lying around at S-Squared from the WRX tranny swap.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Probably.

So what do I do when the suspension fails and I slide off the road in the winter totaling the car? Somehow that doesn't seem cheaper than buying new struts.

[Dean]

I'd vote for new stock struts and cut the springs as needed when you do the 5MT swap.

Ultra cheap and should meet your needs.

Nobody else makes inserts?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

So what do I do when the suspension fails and I slide off the road in the winter totaling the car? Somehow that doesn't seem cheaper than buying new struts.

First of all I've just been joking around, about that whole modifying-cars-slippery-slope-bankrupt thing. Second of all, what exactly is going to happen that will pitch you off the road and total the car? Are the struts & mounts so poorly designed that the strut is going to depart the vehicle or something when they wear out?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

First of all I've just been joking around, about that whole modifying-cars-slippery-slope-bankrupt thing. Second of all, what exactly is going to happen that will pitch you off the road and total the car? Are the struts & mounts so poorly designed that the strut is going to depart the vehicle or something when they wear out?

Well, I do have a nice clunk developing on the left front. I'm assuming it's the strut since it sounds like it's transmitting right from the strut-top, and I can't find anything loose in the suspension/steering.

As far as a wreck, I'm just imagining the damper totally giving out while driving around on washboarded ice, putting the bottom of the car into the ground and surf-boarding off the road on the exhaust. As it is, the car is so low that last winter I was bottoming the car out on the snow/ice, even at low speeds... I imagine it'll only be worse this winter as the suspension gets worse.

That's why I'm looking for a height-adjustable setup, so I can get an inch or so more height out of the car for the winter. I'm already running over-sized snow tires, and it's still too low... so the only step left is to actually lift the suspension a little.

[Dean]

Spring rubbers!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

He needs hydraulics on his ryde.

[sybir]

Originally Posted by Dean

Spring rubbers!

That sounds like a porno career

[Dean]

I'm actually serious about the spring rubbers, and cutting the stock springs.

For now, Scott could just replace the struts (And top mounts if needed) and throw in a couple spring rubbers for the winter to raise the height by an inch or so, and then when he gets the MT5 swapped in, cuut the fronts to make the ride height correct, and posibly tighten up the front just a little.

Cheap and easy all the way around.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I'm actually serious about the spring rubbers, and cutting the stock springs.

For now, Scott could just replace the struts (And top mounts if needed) and throw in a couple spring rubbers for the winter to raise the height by an inch or so, and then when he gets the MT5 swapped in, cuut the fronts to make the ride height correct, and posibly tighten up the front just a little.

Cheap and easy all the way around.

Easier would be to just get some lowering springs, rather than cutting the OEM springs, which would lead to riding the bump stops. The stock springs are probably too soft to use at a lower ride height IMO.

[sperry]

BTW: I asked the same question over on the SVX forums:

http://www.subaru-svx.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28956

I'm not really getting too much feedback... at least not much of anything w/ some reasoning behind it. According to the few replies over there, the stock struts aren't useful for springs beyond 200lb/in. 'Course no one says what happens... I'm assuming the car is bouncy due to under-damping, and the struts probably die quickly.

[cody]

Don't chop your springs, for the love of god.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Easier would be to just get some lowering springs, rather than cutting the OEM springs, which would lead to riding the bump stops. The stock springs are probably too soft to use at a lower ride height IMO.

Huh? I was saying to cut the springs after the tranny swap to lower the front back to stock ride height which would put it in exactly the same place on the struts, not the bump stops.

And "lowering" the car to return to stock height was all you listed as a goal and cutting the springs would acomplish this. You could pay for lowering springs, but why unless you plan to put the AT back in?

And I think the Spring Rubbers are actually a decent idea for the winter...

[Kevin M]

Actually Dean brings up a good point Scott... aftermarket lowering springs wouldn't actually lower the car much, if at all, given the weight reduction after the gearbox swap. If you can find a minimally increased rate with a minimal drop, which Austin can probably give you an accurate calculation of what would be optimal, you may end up doing just fine on OEM struts or similar replacement like GR2s, if they are made.

[JC]

You could just be a normal person and replace the blown strut.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

You could just be a normal person and replace the blown strut.

Who am I again? Oh yeah, the guy that never replaces a broken part with the same part. If I gotta replace it, I'm gonna make it better so either a) it doesn't break again, and/or b) so it performs better. Why spend money on the car when I can spend money and make it better?

BTW: I've got a line on some Dave Clark built Koni/GC's that use a lower spring rate!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

If I gotta replace it, I'm gonna make it better so either a) it doesn't break again, and/or b) so it performs better. Why spend money on the car when I can spend money and make it better?

Yeah, cause aftermarket stuff is usually so much better engineered & stronger than OE parts.

Maybe I'm just getting jaded after being in this industry for a while...

[cody]

The only reason I have suspension is because I bent a strut and used it as an opportunity to replace all 4 struts and all 4 springs...and of course an alignment was necessary. Sure, I spent a bajillion times more going that route, but I think like Scott...find the right parts and you can make it better, stronger, faster...you know, like the million dollar man.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Yeah, cause aftermarket stuff is usually so much better engineered & stronger than OE parts.

Maybe I'm just getting jaded after being in this industry for a while...

Well Koni inserts in a stock strut are just about as OEM as you can get, without just replacing the stock bits w/ stock bits.

I'm just pretty done with the 140F/110R rates on the factory car. It makes the SVX handle worse than my 4500lb Thunderbird did. I worry about hitting the toe hooks on the ground when the nose dives under braking!

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by cody

The only reason I have suspension is because I bent a strut and used it as an opportunity to replace all 4 struts and all 4 springs...

Interesting.. so the car previously had no suspension? I didn't know that was a factory option, that must have been a rough ride...