A question for anyone in the computer industry

[Jeikun]

I am entering into my last year of college (kind of) and I had a few questions about a Computer Science minor in conjunction with my Information Systems major for anyone to give advice, but more specifically for those in the computer industry.

I have 8 more classes to finish out my business major. During the course of my college career, I've taken VB, C++, database design, and project management classes.

I also have a Computer Science minor that would have me take a classes in Data Structures, Mathematics of Computer Science, Microprocessor System Design, and a class either in Operating Systems or Programming languages.

Without my minor, as it stands, I could take four classes for the next two semesters and graduate next December.

My problem is that although I only need 8 more classes for my IS major, I'd need another five classes to finish out my minor. That would put me at five years if I were to take five classes one semester and four the other two. I could also take three classes over summer/winter and still graduate next december by taking 5 classes for those two semester. Getting a Computer Science minor would also guarantee entry into the masters program at UNR so long as my GRE scores were good enough.

Now, my question is if the extra classes would be worth it in the real world? I could still take a class on UNIX/Linux while I'm still in college to give myself that background. Should I continue on with my minor and spend another semester in college (or kill myself for the year) or should I just graduate and move into the real world and get experience from my jobs? Is this something that everyone experiences? Get a degree and find a job and learn relevant job skills there?

Sorry for the long post, but I'm at a definite crossroads here and need some advice...

[sperry]

I've got a degree in Comp Sci from Cal Poly. Graduated in 2001. Not sure how much has changed in 10 years, but when I was in school, a MIS degree barely touched on the stuff Comp Sci covers. You would have a huge head-up on others in the field if you have a programming and/or software engineering background.

For example, those VB/C++/DB classes you took probably gave you a feeling for what programming entails in those specific languages. But the Data Structures, Math and Processors classes will teach you in general what programming is about. Comp Sci is really less about the specifics of programming and more about the general use of computational logic to solve problems. A programming language is just a tool in your tool-box for creating a software solution to a problem. To that end, those additional classes you listed are invaluable in learning to be a problem solver/engineer instead of "just" a programmer.

However, I'm not sure how directly applicable that knowledge will be at an IT type job, but I guarantee if you're supporting software developers, you will be a hero to them if you understand what they're working on and how they're working on it. And you'll be a the top of the list in a competitive field over all the guys that don't have that experience. So in that light, I would recommend the Languages class over the OS class, as that's usually the class that really helps people to learn the concepts of programming outside of language specifics since you'll end up solving the same problems with many languages. But for an IT type job, the OS class may actually be more directly applicable since you'll learn about schedulers, memory management, drivers, etc and how they're designed/implemented which is something that's likely more useful if you get a job in IT.

As far as a Masters... I wouldn't go there yet. Since you're so close to the minor, I'd knock that out, but then get a job and some experience for a bit. You can always go back for a masters, and you might even be able to get your employer to pay for it if they have education reimbursement (not that many do these days with the tanked economy... but who know in 5 years from now). Plus, in the field, experience is just as important as degrees/certs.

[Jeikun]

Sperry,

Thanks for the quick response!

Your response puts many tick marks in the "stay in school" box. I didn't quite see the application of the classes for the minor until you framed it in that light. I'm still not convinced that it's directly relevant to what I want to do, but at this point, the minor would not hurt my chances in the job world..

I'm hesitant to do it because I just want to graduate and get out into the job market. I'm also just about out of my Millennium scholarship as well as my pre-paid tuition, so I'd have to get loans or save up money to pay for the extra classes. I'd probably end up paying for at least half of them, which is 2 or 3k. All in all, I'd be out of college with relatively low debt, but it would still be nice to not have any.

[cody]

Don't be too afraid of student loan debt. Education is a really good investment.

[Nick Koan]

I pretty much agree with everything Scott said.

I think the CS minor will help you quite a bit. I'd say go for it. Depending on the IS work you end up doing, it may not directly provide any job skills, but it will set your resume apart. It also opens the door to IS jobs that might entail a little programming or a deeper understanding of how software is developed. Heck, it could even open you up to full time software engineering if you find you really like it.

The interesting thing about computer related majors (both IS and CS type degrees) is that you don't really come out with the exact skills you need. You (should) come out with a deep understanding of computers, and (hopefully) the ability to pick up the skills you need as you need them. No matter what you do, expect to be continually learning as you work.

[MikeK]

I did an engineering degree (not comp sci), then after I graduated I just read a few programming books and got a job writing software. I worked for a couple of years before going back to university to get a graduate diploma in computer science (basically half a masters).

Although I already basically knew everything that was taught in the comp sci diploma after working for a couple of years, having all the basic concepts laid out formally instead of me just googling bits and pieces (well, altavista-ing back then) really helped a lot. I would say it is definitely worth doing the extra courses as background info, as Scott said.

A lot of the modern languages you might end up working with hide the low level detail, but even so it makes a huge difference to your understanding of what is going on when you know about logic gates and flipping bits and stack vs heap memory and things like that.

No matter how much you learn though, you should still be prepared to learn just about everything you need to know on the job anyway. It always works out that way.

[Jeikun]

Thank you so much for the responses guys.

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to continue on with the minor although I do need to talk with my CS advisor because I don't know if I can get a pre-req waived for my Math of Computer Science class. I'd need to get the pre-req of Calc 2 waived in order to take the class as I've only taken up to Business Calc, which is almost Calc 1, but not quite.

Another follow up question to that, what if I were to take the classes, but not finish the minor due to the above situation? So it would be the same classes that I listed previously, minus the Math of Computer Science class and I wouldn't be able to say that my minor was Computer Science on a resume. What kind of an effect would this have?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Don't be too afraid of student loan debt. Education is a really good investment.

Actually, it's not. In fact, it's probably worse than buying a house in 2005 was. Student debt is the next huge bubble to burst.

It's just that in this case, taking a few extra classes for a CS minor is totally worth it over graduating a semester sooner.

I'm not really suggesting that the minor degree is going to be valuable, but that the specific stuff he'll learn in those classes he list is worth knowing for the tough job market he's about to enter.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by Jeikun

Thank you so much for the responses guys.

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to continue on with the minor although I do need to talk with my CS advisor because I don't know if I can get a pre-req waived for my Math of Computer Science class. I'd need to get the pre-req of Calc 2 waived in order to take the class as I've only taken up to Business Calc, which is almost Calc 1, but not quite.

Another follow up question to that, what if I were to take the classes, but not finish the minor due to the above situation? So it would be the same classes that I listed previously, minus the Math of Computer Science class and I wouldn't be able to say that my minor was Computer Science on a resume. What kind of an effect would this have?

Its not uncommon for fresh-out-of-college resumes to have a list of courses taken, especially if they are above and beyond what is normal for the degree.

Someone will probably figure out that you were going for a CS major or minor, though, and you should be prepared for the question if it should come up during the interview process.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Jeikun

Thank you so much for the responses guys.

I'm pretty sure that I'm going to continue on with the minor although I do need to talk with my CS advisor because I don't know if I can get a pre-req waived for my Math of Computer Science class. I'd need to get the pre-req of Calc 2 waived in order to take the class as I've only taken up to Business Calc, which is almost Calc 1, but not quite.

Another follow up question to that, what if I were to take the classes, but not finish the minor due to the above situation? So it would be the same classes that I listed previously, minus the Math of Computer Science class and I wouldn't be able to say that my minor was Computer Science on a resume. What kind of an effect would this have?

Like I said in response to Cody, IMO it's the content covered that's more important than the minor on the diploma. But really, if that math class is anything like I one I had to take, a) it's a super easy class... all you have to understand are the differences between fixed, linear, exponential, and logarithmic growth and b) understanding the general math behind computing algorithms is one of the skills that defines the difference between an "engineer" and a "programmer".

I'd really try to take the course, especially if it's the last thing between you an the minor degree.

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

Actually, it's not. In fact, it's probably worse than buying a house in 2005 was. Student debt is the next huge bubble to burst.

It's just that in this case, taking a few extra classes for a CS minor is totally worth it over graduating a semester sooner.

I'm not really suggesting that the minor degree is going to be valuable, but that the specific stuff he'll learn in those classes he list is worth knowing for the tough job market he's about to enter.

Well let's just use Jake's situation as an example. I'm pretty sure the $2-3K he's proposing on spending on furthering his education is going to pay off over his lifetime via wages, but apparently you know something I don't?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Well let's just use Jake's situation as an example. I'm pretty sure the $2-3K he's proposing on spending on furthering his education is going to pay off over his lifetime via wages, but apparently you know something I don't?

No, I totally agree. In Jake's situation, it's worth the cost.

Just the idea that in general "education is a really good investment" is about to become suddenly outdated. We're looking at a generation of kids about to enter the job market so far in debt that they'll be indentured servants until they retire. IMO, if you're going to be more than $10k in debt the day you graduate, you couldn't afford the school you went to. There are plenty of ways to get educated without dumping $100,000 on college (trade schools, on the job training, personal study). You shouldn't have to work somewhere for more than a year or two right out of school to pay off you loans. Employers are trimming back wages for college grads because they know kids will take a job and stay at it due to the huge debt they're trying to pay off (and it's impossible to claim bankruptcy on a student loan), so it's becoming less and less of an advantage to have a degree (though it is still an advantage right now IMO).

But all that said, it sounds like Jakes in a good place with scholarships and the like. I'm not lumping him in with the folks that are going to get nailed in the next bubble burst.

Some more info on the bubble:

http://www.good.is/post/when-will-th...s-511-percent/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_922646.html

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

No, I totally agree. In Jake's situation, it's worth the cost.

Just the idea that in general "education is a really good investment" is about to become suddenly outdated. We're looking at a generation of kids about to enter the job market so far in debt that they'll be indentured servants until they retire. IMO, if you're going to be more than $10k in debt the day you graduate, you couldn't afford the school you went to. There are plenty of ways to get educated without dumping $100,000 on college (trade schools, on the job training, personal study). You shouldn't have to work somewhere for more than a year or two right out of school to pay off you loans. Employers are trimming back wages for college grads because they know kids will take a job and stay at it due to the huge debt they're trying to pay off (and it's impossible to claim bankruptcy on a student loan), so it's becoming less and less of an advantage to have a degree (though it is still an advantage right now IMO).

But all that said, it sounds like Jakes in a good place with scholarships and the like. I'm not lumping him in with the folks that are going to get nailed in the next bubble burst.

Some more info on the bubble:

http://www.good.is/post/when-will-th...s-511-percent/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_922646.html

Gotcha. I remember when I wanted to go to culinary school when I was 18 and most were charging like $50K+. I laughed. I knew I'd never get my money's worth unless I was like the 1% that get lucky and make some money owning their own successful restaurant or something. I took the culinary program at the local JC and got a job at a brewpub and within a couple years I was in fine dining, getting offered a sous chef position. But you're right, it's even worse now.

[cody]

Scott, your example of buying a home in 2005 being a better invetment kinda hit me as funny. One of the reasons I went to a JC for nearly 10 years and never actually went to a University was because I didn't want to go into debt. A couple years later, in 2005, I bought a house because it was "such a good investment". I don't think I'll ever live down my decision to not get a real degree for such a dumb reason.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by sperry

You can always go back for a masters...

That's what I said to myself almost 24 years ago. I guess there's still a chance it might happen.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

That's what I said to myself almost 24 years ago. I guess there's still a chance it might happen.

I said the same thing 10 years ago too. And as soon as doing it, and paying for it, is worth more than continued job experience, I'll actually do it. So far, it's a waste of time and money for the field I'm in.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Scott, your example of buying a home in 2005 being a better invetment kinda hit me as funny. One of the reasons I went to a JC for nearly 10 years and never actually went to a University was because I didn't want to go into debt. A couple years later, in 2005, I bought a house because it was "such a good investment". I don't think I'll ever live down my decision to not get a real degree for such a dumb reason.

That mindset of houses always being good investments is the reason we got into such a housing problem. It's also the exact same mindset that people need to wise up to when it comes to college. At some point, college *isn't* worth the cost. That's not to say an education isn't important anymore... you just need to find the right way to get educated so you're into the job market with the requisite skills and money in the bank.

Frankly, my experience with college was that dumb people that didn't work hard there are still boned when they graduate. A college degree is really only worth what the individual puts into it. Same with someone that's self-taught. If they're smart and work hard, they'll be fine with or without the degree. It used to be that just having the degree was worth 20% more salary or something, but that's quickly going away. A JC, a trade school, an internship, etc are all fantastic ways to learn if you take full advantage of it. And they're becoming even better bang for the buck as employers start putting less emphasis on 4-year degrees.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Nick Koan

The interesting thing about computer related majors (both IS and CS type degrees) is that you don't really come out with the exact skills you need. You (should) come out with a deep understanding of computers, and (hopefully) the ability to pick up the skills you need as you need them. No matter what you do, expect to be continually learning as you work.

I think that's pretty common, same in engineering. Even at Poly where we took constant lab courses for the 'learn by doing' motto, it doesn't prepare you for most of what you will actually be doing day to day on the job. An ME can learn how to bang out a flawless free body diagram in 0.72seconds in school but when he gets to work, say in vehicle design, he still won't have a good understanding of how that one component he's responsible for designing needs to interface with everyone else's parts. Or how to work with a vendor to actually get the part made. Or how it will all actually be fabricated and then assembled on a line. Etc etc...

School is for learning the fundamentals, the stuff that gets hammered in deep and will stick with you even just way in the back of your mind unconsciously. 'Learning how to learn', and all that. The stuff you do daily in your career, the specific software packages you'll use, etc. - that mostly gets picked up on the job. Seems like learning is the only constant through a technical career. If you stop learning at some point, it's either time to find a new job or to retire. Otherwise you'll just get laid off anyway cause you won't be as useful to the company anymore.