Clutch replaced

[dknv]

Did anyone else in the area have the impreza clutch shudder problem? I got my clutch replaced under warranty last week - and for once was pretty happy with Lithia for just doing it.

(Of course, I started my whining last November.)

[ShawnS]

A little clutch chatter is normal. But not if it screws with acceleration.

[sperry]

Oh my.. don't get me started:

Here's a copy of the report I filed with Subaru of America, as posted on www.deniedmywarranty.org

Name: Scott P

Make: 2002 WRX

Mileage: ~14000 at time of problem

Time Out Of Use: n/a

Case Number/Repair Order: SOA Case Number 374 524

Problem And Likely Cause: Vibration and noise under deceleration caused by a defective clutch

Reason Given For Denial: "It's normal"

Modifications: Removed Air Silencer, K&N Air Filter, Alarm, Turbo Timer, Rear Swaybar

Your Story:
Dealer 1:
Lithia Reno Subaru
2270 Kietzke Lane
Reno, NV 89502
Phone: (775) 825-8474
Toll Free: 1-800-495-6060
Fax: (775) 825-8230
Email: leads_renosubaru@lithia.com


Dealer 2:
Michael Hohl Subaru
4500 N. Carson St.
Carson City, NV 89706
Phone: (775) 885-0400
Fax: (775) 885-8572


Thursday, Mar 21, 2002
I went by Lithia Reno Subaru Service Dept. and talked to John. Explained my clutch was making a buzzing noise under deceleration between 2500-3500 rpms. Said I had noticed it since the day I got the car, but assumed it was normal. Explained that I've recently heard other people have had this problem, and that it was a known problem with a known solution available via the SOA tech line.

Brought a printout that summarized the tech line information:
- Rattle under de-cel usually in 3rd gear, 4000-2000 Rpm usually.
- Increase rear tire pressure 4 psi, decrease front 4 psi, should get louder. Do the opposite, should get quieter.
- If the last six digits of you VIN are lower than 515611, you have the old type clutch from the factory. If your motor number is less than 331738 (white tag, hard to find), you have the old clutch from the factory.
- The official subaru tech line fix (as of today), is IF your car HAS the OLD clutch parts as indicated by the VIN and Motor numbers, IT IS TO BE REPLACED BY THE FOLLOWING PARTS:

30100AA790 - Disc
30210AA530 - Cover (pressure plate)
12342AA050 - Flywheel
800610740 - Bolts

Service Rep (John) told me that he can't do warranty work on my car just because I bring him a printout of a problem. I told him that I just want to schedule a time to get a tech ride-a-long so a tech could diagnose the problem. John scheduled me for Wed, Mar 27, 2002 for an 8am ride-a-long.

Wednesday, Mar 27, 2002
Arrived for ride-along at 8:30. John's technician Mike rode with me. After demonstrating the noise, Mike told me he knows what noise I'm talking about. He tells me he has a WRX and his car makes the same noise and he thinks that it's normal. I show Mike the above-mentioned printout, and a copy of an invoice from another dealer who has fixed a similar problem:

A CUSTOMER STATES CHECK FOR ENGINE NOISE, SEE HISTORY
ENG ENGINE REPAIR / DIAGNOSTICS
343 WS (N/C)
1 30100AA790 DISC CP CLUTCH (N/C)
1 30210AA530 COVER CP CLUTCH (N/C)
1 12342AA050 FLY WHL AY FLEX (N/C)
8 800610740 BOLT (N/C)


4315 ENGINE NOISE WARRENTY TEST DROVE WITH CUSTOMER, HEARD ON DECEL A GROWLING NOISE FROM FRANS, OR TURBO AREA. CHECKED READINGS WITH NSM ALL READINGS APPEAR NORMAL, CHECKED TRANS FLUID OK. CALLED TECH LINE AND TALKED TO MIKE. AFTER CHANGING TIRE PSI AND SEVERAL TEST DRIVES WE DETERMINED NOISE RO BE COMING FROM THE CLUTCH. ORDERED PARTS WITH #S GIVEN TO ME FROM THE TECH LINE. REMOVED TRANS, REPLACED FLYWHEEL, PILOT BEARING, PRESSURE PLATE AND DISC. REASSEMBLED AND TEST DROVE.HEARD NO OTHER ABNORMAL NOISES. 2.0 TURBO MANUAL TRANS AWD.
************************************************** **
B WARRENTY PAIN RENTAL
WARRRENT WARRENTY PAID RENTAL
343 WS (N/C)
4315
************************************************** **


I explained to mike that I’ve heard the clutch problem is common on early WRXs. Mike was interested to call the tech line. We went back to John. Mike tells John he heard the noise, but thought it was normal. John immediately agrees the noise was normal. Mike shows him the second printout, John tells me he’ll have to do some research on the topic, and that he’ll call me as soon as he has more information.

I left Subaru at 8:50am. Did not receive a call. Called Subaru at 4:30pm talked to John. John tells me that he has a called placed with the tech line and is waiting for them to call him back.

5:15pm, John calls my work number, but I am away from my desk. Leaves a message for me to call him.

5:20pm, I return John’s phone call. He tells me his tech Mike called the tech line and spoke with the Mike listed on the Carr Subaru Invoice. John tells me his tech has determined the noise to be normal, and he can’t replace anything if there’s no problem. I ask John what the tech line said. John tells me again that his tech says the noise is normal because his tech has a WRX and he knows what they sound like. John tells me if I have a problem with any of this to call the Subaru of America customer service number. John never tells me what the tech line said, and has determined my car is normal without following the testing procedure the tech line should have given him.

Thursday, March 28, 2002
Called Subaru, talked to John. Asked John to fax me my service record. John says he’s not allowed to fax it, only the office manager Bill Metgart can fax it to me, and he’s out till Monday. I ask John to reiterate what the tech line said about my car. John says he already told me. I ask again, so John forwards my call to Mike the technician that did the ride-along and called the tech line. I ask Mike what the tech line says. Mike tells me the tech line says the noise is normal gear noise. I asked I ask him if the tech line gave him a testing procedure to determine if the sound was from the clutch or not. He says yes they did. I ask how can he determine the noise is normal when the test was not performed on my car. He tells me the sound is from the transmission. I ask again, how can he know that without performing the test. He says I should call the Service Dept. back, and they will schedule a District Service Operations Manager to check out my car. Called John back. Explain that I’d like to make sure all the discussions we’ve had are noted on my service record. John tells me there’s no way for him to edit my service record. I tell him Mike was given a testing procedure that was not performed on my car before determining everything was normal, and that I must have that noted on my service record. John tells me if I bring my car by, he can have a tech look at it and generate a service record. I tell him that I’d just like the non-test of my car noted. He told me Bill Metgart will be in the office at 1pm today, and that he’d talk with Bill about fixing my service record. I asked him to make sure Bill Metgart calls me when he gets in, John agrees.

Called Subaru of America, talked to Eric. Received case number: 374 524. Eric suggested two possible courses of action: 1) Schedule a meeting at Lithia Subaru with a District Service Operations Manager to have the car inspected by SOA, or 2) go to another dealer, and start over. I decided to call Michael Hohl Subaru in Carson City. I scheduled an appointment for Monday at 9am to have the clutch evaluated. Never heard from Bill Metgart.

Monday, April 01, 2002
Went to Michael Hohl Subaru in Carson City for my 9am appointment. Not only was the service staff friendly and helpful, their technician already knew of the problem, and the solution. It took me all of 2 minutes from walking in the door, to having my parts on order. Hopefully in a week the installation will go just as smoothly.

This leaves me very disappointed with the staff at Lithia Reno Subaru. I had assumed that they were perhaps under stiff constraints regarding warranty work, and had to make sure there was a definitive problem with the car. Now I believe they simply wished to avoid servicing my car… for whatever reasons I cannot understand. Lithia Reno Subaru will never get my business again, and I will recommend to everyone that may consider going there to make the 20 minutes drive to Carson City to visit Michael Hohl Subaru instead.

I'd have sumarized it, but even that tires me out these days. I can't believe you got LITHIA to do the work. Did they fire John or something!?

[ShawnS]

This letter to the editor was published in January's edition of Sport Compact Car.

Letter:
I'm the owner of an '02 WRX with almost 12,000 miles. Since it was new, I noticed a vibration when letting the clutch out in first gear. The Subaru tech line told me there is no fix for this problem, which they call clutch chatter, and which happens to many WRX's. They said the vibration is due to how the car was put together and Subaru is aware of it, but does not intend to put out a recall because it is not a safety related.
Brandon Holderby
Oxnard, Calif.
Response:
Our WRX does the same thing, but it doesn't concern us much because it in no way affects performance and only barely affects drivability.

Thats pretty crappy. If I bought a car as expensive as a WRX, I would expect this not to happen. Or at least have the problem fixed damn it.

[sperry]

Yeah, Subaru of America won't issue a recall. It pretty much *has* to be a saftey or emmissions issue for a recall to be issued (this is true for all manufacturers).

However, the policy for the early run WRXs (like mine) was that if you came in and complained, they'd do a partial replacement like they did on mine. This was not for clutch "chatter" which does seem to be common, but for a particular rattle hear (and felt!) during deceleration at around 3500rpms. My clutch still does it (albeit much more quietly), so if you want to ride with me at the next meet, I'll demonstraight.

I too have the cold clutch chatter... but since it's not too bad on my car, and it goes away as the car warms, it doesn't bother me very much. But Lude's got a point that a $20k+ car really should have a better clutch from the factory. I guess to build a 227hp turbo'd car for so cheap, the cost has to come from cutting a corner somewhere... look at the interior and the clutch!

[dknv]

John at Lithia service handled the logistics of the clutch repair. (Maybe he's had some lessons-learned since last year. And maybe they're in need of improving their service record within the region.) I left my car there overnight so they could look at it first thing in the morning while it was still cold.

My problem was definitely the clutch shudder problem, occurring in the morning when it was cold, and happened in acceleration from 1st gear. Even though it was not safety-related, it was annoying. I asked Lithia about it in November, and they didn't tell me alot at that time - in fact at one of my service appts., I asked them to check it out, the tech diagnosed that my vehicle and specifically clutch action was normal for the car. I went to a NASA event in California, where Subaru of Santa Cruz was a vendor participant, I talked to them, and was assured by them that there was a definite problem and SOA had been working on a replacement kit, and to expect something early this year. I love dealing with honest vendors, and I'm grateful to know about the less-than-ideal experiences of others.

Anyway, new clutch at 21k miles, so I'm happier with that. Now, to get them to fix my squeaking window.....

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by dknv

I went to a NASA event in California, where Subaru of Santa Cruz was a vendor participant, I talked to them, and was assured by them that there was a definite problem and SOA had been working on a replacement kit, and to expect something early this year.

Was that NASA event down at the Marina airport? Scott and I have been to quite a few of those.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

Anyway, new clutch at 21k miles, so I'm happier with that. Now, to get them to fix my squeaking window.....

Wow, I'm finding all this to be highly interesting. I wonder if the "kit" you got is different than the kit I got. Can you check your p/n's against mine?

qty1 30100AA790 DISC CP CLUTCH
qty1 30210AA530 COVER CP CLUTCH
qty1 12342AA050 FLY WHL AY FLEX
qty8 800610740 BOLT

Oh, I had a really squeeky driver's side window too... sprayed a bit of white lithium grease in there right where the window makes contact with that black triangle thingy next to the mirror. Then I ran the window up and down a bit, wiping off any grease that showed up on the glass. It didn't stop squeeking right away, but it gradually got better and better as the grease worked it's way around in there. Now my window's squeek free!

I still can't believe a dealer *at an autocross* said you can get it fixed!! My experiences at Lithia would make me guess if they even had a hint you went and *watched* an autocross they'd deny the claim. I guess some dealers are cool.

[ArthurS]

Damn. My front driver side window is making a squeeking noise also. Has pretty much been since I bought the car. Ill have to go pick up some of that grease and try what you did.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Was that NASA event down at the Marina airport? Scott and I have been to quite a few of those.

No, it was an HPDE at Sears Pt in November; the USTCC final race was there on Sunday too (watching Gary Sheehan in the WRX).

What kind of NASA events go on at the Marina airport?

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

Can you check your p/n's against mine?

Sure, I'll check tonight, will post findings tomorrow.

Originally Posted by sperry

I still can't believe a dealer *at an autocross* said you can get it fixed!! My experiences at Lithia would make me guess if they even had a hint you went and *watched* an autocross they'd deny the claim. I guess some dealers are cool.

Heck, it was an HPDE, and I was driving the car hard at a track. The Santa Cruz guy was really cool though, he figures Subaru sanctioned driving events anyway (with the free scca membership), so might as well deal straight with us.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

No, it was an HPDE at Sears Pt in November; the USTCC final race was there on Sunday too (watching Gary Sheehan in the WRX).

What kind of NASA events go on at the Marina airport?

Autocross. Usually a pretty big turnout too. It's not on the runways tho, so you end up running on a grid of concrete slabs with aircraft tie-downs all over the place, and a light coating of sand if you run early. I found the traction in the Cal Expo parking lot to be a bit better. However, a Subaru should do reletively better in Monterey compared to the competition because of the AWD, but I only AutoX'd there once in the WRX... I used to run my T-Bird there.

The nice thing for the cars is the low altitude, cool air and perpetual cloud cover of Monterey.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

Sure, I'll check tonight, will post findings tomorrow.

Sweet! Thanks!

Originally Posted by dknv

Heck, it was an HPDE, and I was driving the car hard at a track. The Santa Cruz guy was really cool though, he figures Subaru sanctioned driving events anyway (with the free scca membership), so might as well deal straight with us.

That's not the 1st time I've heard the Santa Cruz dealership was cool. There's been stories of them installing APS/Cobb kits for customers and still honoring the warranties.

Time to move to Santa Cruz!! Too bad it's expensive as hell down there... and it's California. I think I've had enough of CA for the next few years. 'Course, Reno's pissing me off too... I think I need to move to Vegas or somewhere in AZ.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

Can you check your p/n's against mine?

qty1 30100AA790 DISC CP CLUTCH
qty1 30210AA530 COVER CP CLUTCH
qty1 12342AA050 FLY WHL AY FLEX
qty8 800610740 BOLT

my service sheet shows:
qty1 30100AA840 DISC CP CLUTCH
qty1 30210AA570 COVER CP CLUTCH
qty1 12342AA071 FLY WHL AY FLEX
qty6 800508310 BOLT/WASHER AY

Hey, I got less bolts than u.

btw, thx for tip about squeeky window, I'll have to try your trick.

[ArthurS]

Must be a common thing for that squeeky window deal.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

my service sheet shows:
qty1 30100AA840 DISC CP CLUTCH
qty1 30210AA570 COVER CP CLUTCH
qty1 12342AA071 FLY WHL AY FLEX
qty6 800508310 BOLT/WASHER AY

Hey, I got less bolts than u.

btw, thx for tip about squeeky window, I'll have to try your trick.

Do you have a 2003? It looks like those parts are newer than mine... I wonder if that's a different "fix kit" for the '02 or parts from the '03... It seems significantly different since you have only 6 bolts!

BTW: Make sure not to over use the lithium grease, since it never "dries" and will make a mess if you get too much all over the place. I put a little in there, and it didn't seem to work at first, so I pretty much gave up. It took a few days before it started working.

Speaking of windows... I wonder if there's any way to swap some beefier motors in there. My '95 T-Bird had MASSIVE windows that could zip up and down like 3 times faster than the WRX windows. In fact it didn't have an "auto down" button, but that's cuz it didn't need it... it literally took like 2 seconds to open... "ZOOoooooop!"

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

Do you have a 2003? It looks like those parts are newer than mine... I wonder if that's a different "fix kit" for the '02 or parts from the '03... It seems significantly different since you have only 6 bolts!

I have an 02.
I didn't think to ask them for the old parts (possibly for spares someday down the road) - do you think it would have been worth it? Maybe for someone who hasn't had theirs done yet?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

I have an 02.
I didn't think to ask them for the old parts (possibly for spares someday down the road) - do you think it would have been worth it? Maybe for someone who hasn't had theirs done yet?

Prolly not worth it... I mean, it needed to be replaced for a reason to begin with right? If the new clutch fails, then you'll get new parts under warranty... and if warranty won't cover it, well, get a better aftermarket clutch, right? At least that's my take on it.

[dknv]

I'm going to be out of warranty miles before I'm out of warranty years. 21k in 1 year, and I thought I'd be at 12k. Too much fun to drive!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

I'm going to be out of warranty miles before I'm out of warranty years. 21k in 1 year, and I thought I'd be at 12k. Too much fun to drive!

I know how it goes... I'm up over 25k miles. 2 years old in July.