The last? brake fluid thread... HA

[Dean]

Edited 11:13PM 11/6/04 due to my misreading the price on the Neo web page.
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OK, I picked up some Ford brake fluid Friday, but decided to do some camparisons just for yucks, and got some interesting results...
I had a couple base criteria. Price, < $1.00/oz, and > 500 degree f dry boiling point, and 284 f or > wet.. This eliminated many, and I pared more that didn't have the bang for the buck.

Ford/Motorcraft High Peformance is locally available in single small bottles for cheap. If you bleed very often, and don't want to wait/pay shipping, it is the choice.

ATE Type 200/ATE Super Blue: Due to it's higher wet BP is a better choice if you bleed less often, and is almost as good as the Ford dry. The 2 different colors are great for flushing since you can tell when you are done, but the large bottles, almost 3x the size of the Ford mean you may end up throwing some away since you don't want to use an open bottle after a month or 2 IMHO. I have not found it locally, but haven't looked real hard. Best Froogle cost is actually lower per ounce than the Ford, but shipping and waiting will cost you.

Motul 600: This probably the best choice for best performance in this price range, and a good choice for people who really don't like to bleed, or flush. The BPs kick both the ATE, and Ford stuff in the butt, and it is only twice the cost. Again, no idea if it is available locally, or at what price.

NEO SUPER DOT 610: This stuff is right at my limit of $1.00 per ounce and wasn't that much better than the Motul, so I wasn't even going to include it. If you realy don't want to bleed/change your fluid, it might be worth the almost double the price from the Motul, but I don't think it is that much better.

It might be interesting to switch between Motul, and ATE Super Blue. Maybe I'll try some Motul for the heck of it before my next winter event.

Product size price $/ounce DryBP/WetBP price from

Ford/Motorcraft 12oz. $3.58 $0.30/oz 550/284 Jones-West Ford per bottle retail price, case discount avaialable...
ATE 33.8oz $9.00 $0.27 536/392 TDI parts
Motul 600 16.9oz $9.50 $0.56/0z 593/420 Oneida Suzuki
NEO SUPER DOT 610 12oz $11.95 $1.00/oz 610/421 Baker Precision

All prices are the best I could find as of 11/6/04 from Froogle, or what I really paid at Jones West on 11/5/04

Info and impulse to do this from...
Colorado Region SCCA
Volvo Maintenance FAQ
Stoptech

[tysonK]

Nice work Dean!

I'm sure this thread will heat up in April.

At least we have enough people that track and auto-x their cars that its possible to get some awesome compairsons going on.

[sperry]

One thing to note, anything that comes in a plastic bottle will absorb water while sitting on the shelf. Not much, but I'd bet that Motorcraft stuff sits around for a year or two if it's in the back of the shelf at the Ford dealer.

Also, since I've got the StopTechs, I can't imagine using only one .5L bottle anymore.... in fact a full liter of ATE seems just about right for the new big brakes, just something else for you Brembo wielders out there to consider.

[Kevin M]

Yeah, the ATE size is awesome for flushing, but not so good when you're just bleeding.

[Dean]

Oops, there are two different NEOs, and the price drop was not on the 610. This takes it back to $1.00 an ounce. Not worth it IMHO. I edited the original post..

Scott has a point, but I think you are more likely to waste more with the ATE, especially if all you want to do is bleed, not flush.

You can actually mail order the Ford fluid in metal botles if you want.

Anybody actually seen any science about brake fluid in plastic bottles. I just tried to find any hard science behind the claims, but couldn't find anything but hearsay. I admit plastic might be slightly more porous than tin, but I can only see that being an issue in an environment that changes temperature quite a bit. Probably not a huge fluctuation in an auto parts warehouse.

A 2-3 piece tin bottle might easily have an imperfect seal as well. I've seen aged unopened aluminum cans that no liquid left in them. Haven't sean any similar plastic bottles.

Let me be clear, I am not saying not to use ATE. I like ATE, and have used it for years in my Audis, including 50K+ miles, and 3500 or so track miles. I have also used the Ford fluid for probably 7000 track miles in 3 cars, and probably 80K+ on the road. They both have their advantages and disadvantages IMHO. Enumerating those differences was the purpose behind this thread. I haven't tried the Motul, but probably will just for the heck of it, even though it is significantly higher in price.

[tysonK]

from the new SposrtsCar magazine:

Prospeed GS610 Brake Fluid:

610 degree boiling point $39.95 www.gs610.com

AP Racing PRF Brake Fluid:

608 degree boiling point $28.95 www.essexparts.com

[Dean]

Thanks Tyson... I actually considered the AP. but it was over my price limit, and it actualy has numbers worse than the Motul at 590/410...

Originally Posted by tysonK

from the new SposrtsCar magazine:Prospeed GS610 Brake Fluid:610 degree boiling point $39.95 www.gs610.com

610/421 for 16 ounces or basicaly $2.50 an ounce...

Again, over my $1 limit per ounce. The Prospeed has slightly better numbers at 610/421, but if I read their page correctly, it is not campatible with other fluids, so to switch to it correctly probably requires a complete dismantling of the brake system and possibly the replacement of all the seals... I'll pass on this one for now until there is more info...

[MikeSTI]

anywhere I can buy the ATE Type 200/ATE Super Blue in town?

[Dean]

Might try Sport Haus, or C&amp;C...

[Kevin M]

Bump for change to the Ford fluid. See Corner Carvers thread. Basically, the part number changed and the dry boiling point dropped from 550 to 500- which is still pretty good, just not as good as Motul or Ate Typ200. However, since the formula changed, I'd be interested in knowing what the wet boiling point is now. That could very well have improved, and if so, it would actually make the cheap stuff better for most of our needs.

[szucchet]

so 1 liter will do for my brembo f+r brakes with a complete flush

[Dean]

It is real close, but yes.

[WRXlerate]

Resurrecting this one. Anyone know of somewhere in town to pick up some decent brake fluid???
C&C said they carry Redline brand?? He didn't sound like he was all that sure of it either.

Summit doesn't have any Super blue in stock. I was going to try the Blue or the Motul 600. Unless someone can recommend a good fluid that is in stock in town.
Thanks

[Dean]

Don't know if Reno Brake carries anything, but might be worth a call. Might also try some of the other "Race" shops. Like ones with Volvos doing burn outs in their commercials, There is also the guys who recently posted in the vendors forum, Alchemy, Sport Haus and others...

Let us know what you find.

I have 3 sealed bottles of Motul 600 available if you want to replace or pay for them. Sorry, no ATE on the shelf.

[WRXlerate]

Thanks for the advice and the offer for the 600. I checked with Reno brake, they carry a DOT 5 from Raybestos, didn't bother him about the specs. Tried Alchemy a couple times, no answer. I had a bad experience at the shop that has the volvo doing a burnout and refuse to give them my money.
Finally found some Blue at Sport Haus, good call!! In stock and $26.56/can. As far as the price, I guess you pay for convenience, summit has it at 13.95/can but it's not in stock at any of their warehouses. I may just give the wilwood DOT 4 a try, it's at 626/417 and 18.95 for 16.9oz. Have you heard anything good or bad about Wilwood?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by WRXlerate

Thanks for the advice and the offer for the 600. I checked with Reno brake, they carry a DOT 5 from Raybestos, didn't bother him about the specs. Tried Alchemy a couple times, no answer. I had a bad experience at the shop that has the volvo doing a burnout and refuse to give them my money.
Finally found some Blue at Sport Haus, good call!! In stock and $26.56/can. As far as the price, I guess you pay for convenience, summit has it at 13.95/can but it's not in stock at any of their warehouses. I may just give the wilwood DOT 4 a try, it's at 626/417 and 18.95 for 16.9oz. Have you heard anything good or bad about Wilwood?

NO DOT 5!!! It doesn't mix with 3 & 4, and has very specific uses which we do not meet.

Ouch... That is a bit of markup...

If I recall, Wilwood is just too pricey. Even at $26.56/l for ATE, it is still better than $38/l for Wilwood, and I think I found something that said it was even more hydroscopic than most DOT 4s. Might call a couple more German car places. They often lean toward ATE.

[cody]

http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/ate/a...blue_fluid.jsp
http://www.tirerack.com/brakes/ate/a...e200_amber.jsp

$12/can. Go pick it up.

Or shipping is only $7.93 for one can. $8.46 for two.

[WRXlerate]

Thanks Dean, I'll stay away from the wilwood then. The blue will work fine with the Brembos from what I've read, correct?

And thanks Cody for the Tire Rack suggestion, now I just have to beg the girlfriend to go out there to pick it up for me so I can save the extra $8.

[Dean]

Good find Cody. I forget about TR since they moved for some reason.

I have used quite a bit of blue in my STI, WRX, Audis, etc... As I and others have said, the Gold is allegedly a little better, but the Blue is fine and has the awesome benefit of being blue when you are flushing the system.

[WRXlerate]

Just ordered from tirerack, doubtful I'll find it cheaper anywhere else.
Thanks to both of you for all of your help.

[cody]

Glad it worked out.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Good find Cody. I forget about TR since they moved for some reason.

I have used quite a bit of blue in my STI, WRX, Audis, etc... As I and others have said, the Gold is allegedly a little better, but the Blue is fine and has the awesome benefit of being blue when you are flushing the system.

StopTech did some extensive testing and found that the Blue degrades relatively quickly, but the Typ200 is still good stuff. I personally recommend using Blue as a buffer between the old and new stuff during a flush so you know exactly when the old is gone from all 4 circuits.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

StopTech did some extensive testing and found that the Blue degrades relatively quickly, but the Typ200 is still good stuff. I personally recommend using Blue as a buffer between the old and new stuff during a flush so you know exactly when the old is gone from all 4 circuits.

Link?

[Kevin M]

Nope. Word of mouth from a friend who used to work there.

[szucchet]

napa carries some stuff called dot 5.1, i have not used it but the bottle say 550F and its compatible with dot 3, 4. I have not tried it but it might be an affordable option, i think it was like 5$ for .5L