Questions about suspension geometry improvements

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by JC

That doesn't really answer my question about how it will make an STi feel worse.

http://www.iwsti.com/forums/showthread.php?t=78804

You're confusing response of the wheels turning and something happening vs. turn-in response.

[M3n2c3]

While I would love quicker steering response and smaller required inputs, what I'm looking at now is how to fiddle with (or if it's even worth) fixing the geometry problems resulting from lowering the car. Just kind of weighing options for improving front end grip at turn-in and while cornering without having to daily-drive on R-compounds. A new steering rack is not really on my radar at the moment.

I do intend to do steering rack bushings very soon, though. . .

That reminds me: anyone know off the top of their head if - given that a great number of motor, drivetrain and suspension bits from the GC Impreza are compatible with or identical to the old Foresters - the Impreza steering rack bushings will fit an '00 Forester? I can't tell exactly by looking at the crappy OE diagrams I've been able to find, but they look the same, so I may want to replace the Forester's as well. I never actually feel like I'm driving it - more like sailing. Too vague.

[JC]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

You're confusing response of the wheels turning and something happening vs. turn-in response.

I said steering response. As in you steer and the wheels respond. I don't see what you are getting and you still haven't backed up your original assertion nor even really tried.

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

While I would love quicker steering response and smaller required inputs, what I'm looking at now is how to fiddle with (or if it's even worth) fixing the geometry problems resulting from lowering the car. Just kind of weighing options for improving front end grip at turn-in and while cornering without having to daily-drive on R-compounds. A new steering rack is not really on my radar at the moment.

Fair enough. Well I think you have your answer then.

[M3n2c3]

Sorry, I did say steering response in my first post. It was misphrased.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

While I would love quicker steering response and smaller required inputs, what I'm looking at now is how to fiddle with (or if it's even worth) fixing the geometry problems resulting from lowering the car.

The only way to fix geometry problems from lowering is to raise the chassis LCA pivots or lower the outer balljoints. Period.

Anything else is simply finding more grip in other ways, but the geometry will still be poor.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by JC

I said steering response. As in you steer and the wheels respond. I don't see what you are getting and you still haven't backed up your original assertion nor even really tried.

We have a different idea of "steering response" then. My idea is that you turn the wheel and the car immediately and without drama begins to turn. Both of us would say that the Evo, stock vs. stock, has better "steering response" than an STi, but if you slowed down the Evo's rack, you wouldn't like it but I would still think the Evo had better response, because it would have less initial understeer than the STi still.

[M3n2c3]

Ssssoooooo. . . I drove Geiger for the first time today.

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I'll do sway bars first.

Anyone have recommendations for endlinks? I'm not sure what all the differences in bushings (from urethane to spherical bearings like in the Perrin links) will do.

And my options for front sways seem to be extremely limited as the WRX specific bar apparently won't fit. So far I've found one non-turbo from Rallitek and one from Whiteline.

[Kevin M]

WhitelineKartboy/Noltec endlinks. In a DD you want poly, not spherical. Not even the ones Dean will tell you about that have dust shields that supposedly prevent wearing out. The IPD/Rallitek and Whiteline front bars are good choices. Many flavors to choose from in the rear, and no real advantages for one over another except through sizing.

[M3n2c3]

The Noltec endlinks seem to be cheaper most places. . . any negatives vs. the kartboy or whiteline?

I was thinking about going with the Rallitek 22mm FSB as it's a good ~$70 cheaper than the Whiteline, and a Cusco 22mm adj RSB ($150 and I like the blue ).

Rallitek's full kit (FSB, RSB, R mounts and R endlinks) doesn't include the front endlinks. Are they mostly unnecessary? I've noticed that the stock front links are not cheap plastic like the rears. . .

[Dean]

Despite what Kevin says, as far as I know, the stock front end links are solid ball/socket on all but the wagon and should remain as such even on a DD. And if you are going to the effort of buying stiffer bars, why would you then soften the endlinks?

We just had this discussion by the way.

http://seccs.org/forums/showthread.p...kis#post100663

Cobb or Hotchkis bars for a full set with stronger rear brackets are under $400 shipped...

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

The Noltec endlinks seem to be cheaper most places. . . any negatives vs. the kartboy or whiteline?

I was thinking about going with the Rallitek 22mm FSB as it's a good ~$70 cheaper than the Whiteline, and a Cusco 22mm adj RSB ($150 and I like the blue ).

Rallitek's full kit (FSB, RSB, R mounts and R endlinks) doesn't include the front endlinks. Are they mostly unnecessary? I've noticed that the stock front links are not cheap plastic like the rears. . .

I am putting Noltecs on the front of my wagon, Whiteline rear. $70 is a good enough reason to buy the IPD bar. But, the Cusco bar is about as expensive as it gets without going to crazy boutique JDM stuff.

AFAIK your model year has beefy rear brackets, and are not needed. It might have only been a WRX thing though. Don't know much about your stock fronts- how about posting a pic?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Despite what Kevin says, as far as I know, the stock front end links are solid ball/socket on all but the wagon and should remain as such even on a DD. And if you are going to the effort of buying stiffer bars, why would you then soften the endlinks?

We just had this discussion by the way.

http://seccs.org/forums/showthread.p...kis#post100663

Cobb or Hotchkis bars for a full set with stronger rear brackets are under $400 shipped...

You could be right about the endlinks but I was under the impression it was only the STi that cot pillowballs, and they're not that great either. But if they're going to be replaced, then I would not put an aftermarket spherical link in there. It will wear out and cause annoyance at some points, whereas a poly bush will not. Personally I don't like thinking of endlinks as consumables like brake rotors on a street car. I never said I thoguht it was the better performance option, just that it's not worth introducing an eventual maintenance issue for such a small performance gain.

Cobb/Hotchkis make great bars, but I'm ambivalent about the extra performance gains being worth the extra money. I would strongly consider them on my track car, probably go with cheaper solid bars on a street car.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

IAFAIK your model year has beefy rear brackets, and are not needed. It might have only been a WRX thing though. Don't know much about your stock fronts- how about posting a pic?

I am almost positive my '04 STI brackets are identical to my '02 WRX. I doubt the RS is any better.

[M3n2c3]

as far as I can tell the Hotchkis FSB will not fit the RS.

pics: rear endlink, rear mount, and front endlink. From the look of it, I could probably skip the front endlinks at first - they seem pretty solid. Rear mounts should be ok for a 22mm bar, as well.

[Dean]

Weird.. They make a wagon bar, but no RS...

[M3n2c3]

I think it's different between WRX and RS due to the turbo crossmember and exhaust bits. . .

But yeah, no love for the RS. At least, not from anyone but Whiteline and Rallitek.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

I am almost positive my '04 STI brackets are identical to my '02 WRX. I doubt the RS is any better.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ht=rsb+bracket

I don't know if the GD RS got the upgraded mounts or not, but your STi did. Unless maybe it was an early mid-model year change.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

I think it's different between WRX and RS due to the turbo crossmember and exhaust bits. . .

But yeah, no love for the RS. At least, not from anyone but Whiteline and Rallitek.

No worries. Just get aluminum FCAs and an STi front sway.

[M3n2c3]

I'm cool with the $100 Rallitek FSB for now.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

But if they're going to be replaced, then I would not put an aftermarket spherical link in there. It will wear out and cause annoyance at some points, whereas a poly bush will not. Personally I don't like thinking of endlinks as consumables like brake rotors on a street car.

Poly bushings are maintenance items. They need to be lubed frequently, otherwise they will squeak and wear quickly. Now, OE-type rubber bushings are a different story and will last for years without touching them. But they deflect a lot.

The durability of a rod-ended link simply depends on the quality of the bearings, and you generally get what you pay for. If you use good bearings, with some kind of dust seal wrapped around them, they'll last a long time with zero deflection - but good bearings are not cheap.

[cody]

I'm not disagreeing with those generalizations but, FWIW, my Mr. Josh solid endlinks (cheapest around, poly bushing) are still working fine after nearly 4 years and ~50K miles. And I've probably only lubed them 3 times.

[M3n2c3]

I thought the timing on this was funny: a recent update to subarugenuineparts.com says that the 04+ RSB mounts are heavier duty. https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/p...oducts_id=1230

[Dean]

Originally Posted by M3n2c3

I thought the timing on this was funny: a recent update to subarugenuineparts.com says that the 04+ RSB mounts are heavier duty. https://www.subarugenuineparts.com/p...oducts_id=1230

I'm not going to go pull them out of the box, but I am sure my '04 STI rear bar mounts were not diagonal 2 layer mounts as pictured. Mine looked just like the ones off my '02 WRX. Single layer, U clamp bolts parallel to the frame.

I agree those look beefier, but I really don't think all '04s got them. Maybe a mid year change as Kevin mentioned.