The race car idea thread

[sperry]

Continuing the discussion from both this week's SCCA meeting and SECCS meet, let's talk about race cars.

Specifically, I'm trying to figure out what the best car is to go club racing with, and have a blast driving at track days. So, I'm talking about something that's competitive in its class, with a power/weight ratio that's near the WRX I've got now (so it's as much fun to drive as my current car), but is also somewhat reliable (we're talking race car reliable, not daily driver reliable, of course stuff will break, I just want something that gets through a whole season w/o needing a motor or something), and not back-breakingly expensive to operate.

Of course, Spec Miata is nearly always the 1st thing that comes up. Problem is, I don't fit in one.

Vintage racing is another popular suggestion, but keeping with the vintage rules means old technology for simple stuff... like no ventilated brake rotors... which means maintenance is expensive due to all the bits that need to be replaced perpetually.

Lot's of swap type ideas come up as well... and I'm all for swapping a simple, powerful SBC 350 or Ford 5.0 into something light-weight, but then what class does that run in? I've already got an ITE car (ITE is SCCA's "catch-all" class for production based cars that's currently being owned by a 500hp EVO with 6" of wide-body on it). Plus, swaps are expensive, and finicky to maintain.

So... with all that in mind... is there anything out there? Or is going racing for say $5,000 a season in a 300 hp, 2500 lb, reliable race car impossible?

[Dean]

I thought of something after the meet last night.

S2000???

Science of Speed S2000

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I thought of something after the meet last night.

S2000???

Science of Speed S2000

I thought of that too. The problem of course is fitting in one. I've driven Pat's, but to really be comfortable in one, I'd need to gain a *ton* of space by going to a race seat, and I get the feeling that a shell won't gain me the space considering a cage would have to go in over my head.

Plus, the S2000 is pretty much the epitome of high-tech, high-reving, high-strung motors... I'd much rather go the other direction and look at low-reving, big displacement, lots of torque. In short: I'd be afraid that I'd be going through motors just as often in an S2000 as I am in the WRX.

Shoe horn me in and drop a 5.0 in there, and I'm sold. But now I'm back to racing a $50,000 car.

[NevadaSTi]

I have a 5.0 for sale.

[Kevin M]

I don't think you can plan to be competitive in any race series involving swaps if you're trying to stick to a hobbyist budget. Like the speed/cost/reliability sum, you have to choose between speed, cost and competitiveness. Spec 7, Formula Vee, and maybe even Formula Ford might work for you though. They are (relatively) inexpensive and you don't fall too far behind the leaders if you're getting outspent. The downside of course is slower laptimes than you turn in your WRX.

[Dean]

What are you looking for in terms of initial investment?

Aug sports car:
T2 Pontiac $19K
Solo Vee $6K
F500 12.5-16K
SSB BMW Z4 $23K

More will pop up at the end of the season.

[skimonkey30]

WCM Ultralite basically a "seven" design with an s2000 motor in it I think you can even buy a roller or kit with no motor. I've always wanted one

more info here:
http://www.wcmultralite.com/

[sperry]

Originally Posted by NevadaSTi

I have a 5.0 for sale.

I'll give you $8000 for it. But first I need you to:

Rebuild the motor to make 350 hp / 350 ftlbs al day long under race conditions.
Dry sump the oil system, install an oil cooler and large radiator.
Weld in an SCCA legal roll cage, add race shell seats, harnesses, nets, and fire system.
Strip everything not needed for racing, reduce the weight to 2700 lbs or less.
Convert the car to IRS, add fully adjustable coilovers.
Add big brakes, brake bias controller, and brake ducting.
Add front splitter, fender flares, rear extractor, and wing.

You know, make a race car out of it.

[sperry]

Dean, Kevin, I pretty much won't fit in anything open wheel. And a Touring class car isn't quite what I'm interested in... I'm more interested in Improved Touring... you know real race cars, not full interiors at stock ride-height.

And David, I certainly don't want to race a $40,000 kit car without fenders! That's not at all fitting the criteria. If I was looking for that sort of ride, I'd get an Ultima or Radical.

[Dean]

I don't know where it ended up, but Sid's Z is out there somewhere I think.

Randy's BP corvette?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I don't know where it ended up, but Sid's Z is out there somewhere I think.

Randy's BP corvette?

I actually though of Randy's Vette last night on my drive home. To be frank, the though of hustling that beast through the esses at RFR at 130 mph scares the shit out of me. Plus, it's pushing "vintage" as far as maintaining it. And I'm not sure I could afford to keep tires on it... what's a pair of 395 width rear slicks go for?

[skimonkey30]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, Kevin, I pretty much won't fit in anything open wheel. And a Touring class car isn't quite what I'm interested in... I'm more interested in Improved Touring... you know real race cars, not full interiors at stock ride-height.

And David, I certainly don't want to race a $40,000 kit car without fenders! That's not at all fitting the criteria. If I was looking for that sort of ride, I'd get an Ultima or Radical.

probably should've read the first post

but its still awesome......do it

[skimonkey30]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, Kevin, I pretty much won't fit in anything open wheel. And a Touring class car isn't quite what I'm interested in... I'm more interested in Improved Touring... you know real race cars, not full interiors at stock ride-height.

And David, I certainly don't want to race a $40,000 kit car without fenders! That's not at all fitting the criteria. If I was looking for that sort of ride, I'd get an Ultima or Radical.

oh and if I can fit in an open wheel car I think you can too

[sperry]

Originally Posted by skimonkey30

oh and if I can fit in an open wheel car I think you can too

I'm 6'4", 210 lbs. I know you're about as tall as me, but I don't think you're as big around... (just wait 'till you hit your late twenties though ).

But the problem is not really that I don't fit in "any" open wheel cars... it's that I don't fit in any open wheel cars that I could afford. I could probably find a Formula Atlantic or something, but the older cars that I could afford are all *tiny*. Like scary tiny. A Formula Ford, or Formula Vee... they look like big RC cars.

But mostly, while an open wheel car would be a fun way to go stupid fast with a small motor, I want to race production based cars. If I could pick any US pro series to race in, it'd be ALMS GT2.

[skimonkey30]

Obviously I wasnt there for the intial conversation

But as Dean mentioned before how much is your intial investment in a car going to be?

5-10k?
10-15k?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

I actually though of Randy's Vette last night on my drive home. To be frank, the though of hustling that beast through the esses at RFR at 130 mph scares the shit out of me. Plus, it's pushing "vintage" as far as maintaining it. And I'm not sure I could afford to keep tires on it... what's a pair of 395 width rear slicks go for?

Used full slicks are relatively cheap compared to DOT tires. Even new aren't that bad

And I think it is more race car than vintage

Can't hurt to talk to him this weekend about the car.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by skimonkey30

Obviously I wasnt there for the intial conversation

But as Dean mentioned before how much is your intial investment in a car going to be?

5-10k?
10-15k?

I'm not so much looking at a particular initial cost. I'm really looking more for an answer to "is there something out there that's fun, competitive, reliable, decently fast, and not outrageously expensive to operate?"

Or more specifically, is there any reason not to just go racing with the WRX I've already got, or is everything that's at all comparable just as retardedly expensive?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Used full slicks are relatively cheap compared to DOT tires. Even new aren't that bad

And I think it is more race car than vintage

Can't hurt to talk to him this weekend about the car.

I probably won't be out there this weekend.

Plus, I don't really want a Corvette of any vintage, let alone a C3 which is my least favorite.

[cody]

I don't see what's wrong with your existing car. Isn't a dependable, race-ready motor setup available?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

Plus, I don't really want a Corvette of any vintage, let alone a C3 which is my least favorite.

I was just going to suggest an IT (or similar) Corvette. C4s are cheap, you fit in them, and they have the characterisitics you're looking for. I may be wrong about the "cheap" part though, just basing that on the price of your average street-driven C4 these days.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

I don't see what's wrong with your existing car. Isn't a dependable, race-ready motor setup available?

No, at least not near his current power levels. Scott's creeping close to 200bhp/liter at this point. A race-built but stock power output EJ257 would be close, but cost more than a V8 making the same or more power and not be as long-lasting.

[Pat R.]

I've heard that '86 MR2s make awesome race cars.

[cody]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

No, at least not near his current power levels. Scott's creeping close to 200bhp/liter at this point. A race-built but stock power output EJ257 would be close, but cost more than a V8 making the same or more power and not be as long-lasting.

I'm no big-power guy but what about a stock STi motor with forged pistons, GT30R, external wastegate and run it on race gas with a conservative tune (350+ whp).

Since Scott sees seriously high G's, you'd want to drop the dough for a dry sump and throw an oil cooler on since it is a race car after all.

What am I missing?

IBAlot

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

What am I missing?

IBAlot

The big catch is that it's either an STi Scott has to buy, which is out of his desired budget even before cage and all that crap, or a further jaunt into FrankenSuby land with his WRX. He either has to drop $30k+ to build a race-competitive STi or take his WRX to ITE where he will never catch up, not without high 5 figures from where he already is with that car. It's also not going to be a light car. For a given power/weight ratio, lighter and less power is generally better. Tires, brakes, fuel, oil, all that stuff costs less to run an event.

But back to the original point, a 350whp STi-powered car is generally not going to be as reliable and long-lasting as a 350+whp LSx.

p.s. Scott, feel free to not swallow these words I'm putting in your mouth.

[cody]

Well, there's no perfect solution, and I don't even know what ITE is other than it sounds like a class, but I still say the best bang for the buck (including the notion of dependability) is going to be a conservative race gas tune, rotated mount turbo, EJ25 with CP pistons.

The alternative is a Vette (RE: $$$) and Scott said no to that.