How to Flush your Brake System?

[100_Percent_Juice]

So 4 years and 65k later I think the VUE is in need of new brake fluid seeing as the fluid in there now looks like my coffee. I couldn't find too much info on here about how to do it so I am posting this thread. I found this on a website.

Originally Posted by trustmymechanic.com

At my shop we recommend flushing the brake fluid system about every 30,000 miles, or whenever we are performing a brake job. To do this flush, we open the brake lines located at each wheel and allow the brake fluid from the brake master cylinder to "gravity bleed" as we continue to feed new fluid to the master cylinder until the fluid runs clear at all wheels. By gravity bleed I mean without the assistance of anything other than allowing the fluid to slowly drip from the lines by the natural force of gravity.
You are probably familiar with the term "bleeding the brakes" when talking about a brake job. When the brake lines are opened or any work is performed to the brake system that can allow air to get trapped within the lines, the brakes must be bled of air. In the earlier days, the mechanic would bleed the brakes by having someone pump and hold pressure on the brake pedal as he opened the brake lines located at each wheel. This method of bleeding the brakes is not a recommended procedure for newer brake systems (discussed later).

What is the difference between flushing and bleeding? Flushing is just that, flushing the old dirty fluid out of the system and replacing it with new clean fluid. Bleeding usually consists of removing just enough brake fluid to get out the air pockets that have become trapped in the system, and usually does not focus on the time consuming process of removing the dirt and old fluid from the system.
One side note learned by experience. If you are interested in doing a brake fluid flush on your own vehicle, be warned of the potential dangers. Foremost, follow the brake bleeding procedures outlined in the repair manual you should be using. Stepping on the brake pedal with the brake lines cracked open can cause the dirt and debris to be pushed into the body of the master cylinder, thus causing damage to internal parts and seals of the master cylinder and the anti-lock brake components. Stepping on the brake pedal as someone under the vehicle opens each brake line at the wheel used to be the way you bled brakes, but not anymore.
Gravity bleeding does take a little longer to perform and can require a lot of new brake fluid to push out the old dirty fluid, but the risk of doing internal damage to the anti-lock system is greatly reduced. They also make vacuum assisted brake bleeding and flushing equipment to help speed up the process.

So this website is saying that all I have to do is go around and open the bleeders and then let it drip out into big gulp cups while I keep adding new fluid into the reservoir? This sounds like it could take ages. I want to make this a DIY job since I just spent $1500 on transmission parts and funds are running low. Are there any small tools from Kragen or HF that I might get to make the job a little easier/cleaner while keeping the cost low? I saw a couple old thread about Ford brake fluid. Are you guys still using that?

[Dean]

All you need is a spare human to push the pedal, the order from the shop manual, a couple hand tools, a piece of hose/tubing (clear fish tank air hose or surgical tubing works well) and maybe a turkey baster.

It is easiest with all 4 wheels in the air and removed on Jack stands, but can be done 1 corner at a time.

Suck all the fluid you can out of the reservoir with a baster. (not required, but speeds things up)

Fill with decent fluid.

Follow order in manual.

Open and close each bleeder as you press and release the pedal. (Open bleeder, press pedal, close bleeder, raise pedal.)

Repeat until fluid is clear on each corner checking level in reservoir every 5 pumps until you figure out how far it moves.

NEVER LET THE RESERVOIR RUN DRY, or you start over and have a pain getting all the air out.

After all lines are clear, I suggest doing a few more pumps on each corner with a final "pressure" pump.

That final pump ensures no air sucked in at the bleeder.

With the bleeder closed, pump the pedal 3 times and keep pressure on it. Just barely crack the bleeder open and reclose before pedal reaches bottom.

[bigrobwoot]

How much would it cost to get it professionally done? I'm looking at cory and bob for this one...

[cody]

I like the inertia bleed method. It's similar to gravity feed, but you swing the car in circles from a rope to hasten the process.

All joking aside, I have always used the old fasioned method even though I have ABS. I think I just enjoy telling my girlfriend to pump over and over again though.

[Dean]

Not to take away from them, but Robby might be willing to do it/help you do it in his well equipped garage as well.

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7816

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

I think I just enjoy telling my girlfriend to pump over and over again though.

The dialog is pretty funny... "Down.... Up.... Down.... Up.... Wait... Are you up or down? Up. OK, Down.... pressure..."

[bigrobwoot]

Originally Posted by Dean

Not to take away from them, but Robby might be willing to do it/help you do it in his well equipped garage as well.

http://www.seccs.org/forums/showthread.php?t=7816

Oh yeah, I forgot about him haha. I asked him about tranny fluid but I didn't think about brakes also... Thanks

[100_Percent_Juice]

I don't have a serivce manual for the car so I don't know in which order to flush each brake. I read that its best to start from the back and work your way up to the master cylinder. Does that sound correct?

[zpeed]

I start with the one that closest to the reservoir. Usually Left Front, Right Front, Right Rear, Left Rear.

[Dean]

Search a little on google, Saturn forums, etc... Found this, but not sure it is Vue specific.

http://www.spswebpage.com/Tech-Artic...Right-Way.html

Subarus do not follow the furthest away to nearest to the master sequence, don't know about the Vue.

[100_Percent_Juice]

So I called saturn.
"Hey this is ***** in the service department"
"Yeah, I want to flush the brakes on my 05 vue and I don't know if you work from the back of the vehicle to the master cylinder or from the master cylinder to the back."
"uhh. Just put pressure on the master cylinder and open the bleeders"
"yeah o.k. but in what order do I flush them"
"uhh... let me go ask"
"I just talked to the tech and he said that if you have ABS do NOT flush the system because you will screw it up and burn up the motor. IF you don't have ABS then do it from the back and work up to the master."
"So how do I put new brake fluid in with my ABS?"
"The tech said that we have never flushed a brake system on a VUE since they have been made. Why do you think it's bad?"
"Its pretty dark."
"Oh that's because it's synthetic"
"I just bought new fluid and its clear like water"
"As much as I want to sell you a new ABS motor I don't think you want to do that."
"o.k. I guess were done here. Thanks for the advice."

[100_Percent_Juice]

I just checked the fluid and its pretty clear but there is muddy color residue in the master cylinder. It made the fluid look a lot worse than it really is. I guess that's normal?

[zpeed]

I flush all my car with ABS and everything was fine.You can take out all the fluid just in the reservoir. Wipe them clean use cotton bud if you have to. Then refill with the new one.

[100_Percent_Juice]

I picked up brake pads from Khail and installed them on the VUE tonight. The passenger front was at about 1/8th inch but the driver front was worn quite a bit more. So much in fact that the inside pad had just started to grind against the rotor. Is it typical for pads to wear unevenly or does it depend on driving habits?

[sperry]

The uneven wear must have something to do with the brake fluid. I mean otherwise why would it be posted in this thread?

(Also, I don't think it's all that unusual or indicitive of a problem on a car that's driven around town almost exclusively. If those were coming of a racecar after a long session, then I might be worried.)

[AlchemyMG]

There's no problem with bleeding/flushing the brakes on an ABS car, there are just a couple extra steps you might need to take. The Miller cup cars we ran use a stock ABS system and we flushed the system every couple of races since they used stock brakes and really punished them, even the motec ABS system we run on the vipers has its own bleed routine built into the software.
If you want to flush out the old fluid you can just do a standard bleed routine. Always start at the caliper farthest from the master cylinder/reservoir and work your way closer, if you have a caliper with a bleed on both the inside and outside, always start on the inside caliper. Like Dean stated sucking all the old fluid out of the reservoir can speed up the process considerably, then after that just continue to bleed each corner until the fluid runs clear and your set. Make sure you keep an eye on the reservoir and keep plenty of fluid in it so you dont suck air into the master.
Once you get the fluid to run clear on all 4 corners rebleed each corner with the engine running. This will get the ABS pump to cycle and force any air out that might get caught in the ABS circuit. You'll obviously need somebody on the stupid end of the brake pedal to help you out on this, and having the car up on jackstands/blocks will make the whole procedure much easier.
The synthetic fluid is definitely the right stuff if you can spend the cash ( we use castrol SRF, about $75 a quart) if not get a good quality standard brake fluid, (Motul RBF 600 or 660)

If you have any questions or feel a little uneasy about doing it yourself swing by the shop and we can get you sorted out.

Tyler
Alchemy Motorsports

[AlchemyMG]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

I picked up brake pads from Khail and installed them on the VUE tonight. The passenger front was at about 1/8th inch but the driver front was worn quite a bit more. So much in fact that the inside pad had just started to grind against the rotor. Is it typical for pads to wear unevenly or does it depend on driving habits?

The uneven wear is probably either from the compound of the pad (wears quicker on the leading edge where more heat is generated), or from the calipers flexing causing uneven pressure on the pad. Thats one of the biggest issues with stock or low end calipers is the flex. Thats why you see the big mono-block and billet calipers on race cars, that way every ounce of pressure generated by the system goes into putting pressure on the pads. Any flex in the caliper is wasted energy.

[100_Percent_Juice]

^That. Thanks for that info!

[AlchemyMG]

No worries, glad I could help. And yeah that fluid looks like it definitely needs to be flushed judging from the picture. Alot of that "sludge" is from the fluid getting really hot, thats particles, imperfections, and other goo in the brake fluid that been burnt. All that stuff will cause the fluid to boil off at the calipers at a lower temp leading to brake fade or failure all together. Its not too much of an issue here in Nevada, but older fluid has also collected moisture, which also lowers the boiling point.

[Dean]

Check out The Last brake fluid thread...Ha! While it is a little more performance oriented than street, the same stuff applies. It is also a bit old, so prices may have chanched, but no new earth shattering fluid has come into existence.

If you are going to leave it in for years, I would go with the Motul or ATE. Either is way better than stock and reasonably priced. The Blue ATE makes flushing very easy, but the coloring allegedly has a slight negative effect on the fluid vs. the gold, but it is still way better than what you have been running for however long. I switch between motul/blue/gold on my Audi and STI depending on what I have and what I am doing for the next couple months.

[cody]

I've never started the car when bleeding brakes on my WRX with ABS. Have I been doing it wrong?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I've never started the car when bleeding brakes on my WRX with ABS. Have I been doing it wrong?

I don't think it makes a difference unless you've got the Subaru diagnostics tool that can tell the ABS unit to activate while you're bleeding. I've never really worried about it because as long as you're flushing once a year or so you'll eventually get that fluid swapped out as the ABS gets used over the course of the year between flushes.

However, I do wonder why Subaru stopped putting bleeders on the ABS block itself. My SVX has one bleeder at each caliper, and two on the ABS, so I'm sure I'm getting all the fluid flushed! But I've also never had any issues w/ not flushing the ABS on the WRX, and I've punished the brakes on that car far worse than the SVX will ever get punished.

[AlchemyMG]

Its not absolutely vital that you do it, but if you're already in the process of bleeding its just an extra step to ensure no bubbles got trapped in the ABS circuit. If you're flushing the system and it was bubble free before, there shouldn't be any bubbles induced as long as you keep the reservoir full and it doesn't suck in any air.

Alot of the early ABS units had a bleeder because there were some issues with bubbles getting stuck in the circuits, but they've pretty much figured that out in the modern stuff. Alot of the newer ABS units do a quick cycle on start up mainly for this purpose.

If you do have the scan tool to activate the ABS module another trick you can do is use a little handheld vacuum pump and put the reservoir under a vacuum and cycle the ABS module, this will pull any bubbles up to the reservoir where they can bleed out.
We do have an Ethos scan tool here at the shop, so we can do a bleed this way if anyone needs it done.

[MPREZIV]

Originally Posted by AlchemyMG

...Once you get the fluid to run clear on all 4 corners rebleed each corner with the engine running. This will get the ABS pump to cycle and force any air out that might get caught in the ABS circuit...

PLEASE BE CAREFUL WITH THIS IDEA!!!!!!!!!!! ABS systems make a LOT of pressure. Some systems, when the ABS motor is running, can fire a stream of brake fluid out of a bleeder strong enough to cut right through you. Literally. Like a water jet... but with poison instead of water.

[100_Percent_Juice]

That would totally ruin my weekend.
"Yeah, poison control? I have brake fluid in my stomach."
"Sir did you drink it?"
"uhh not really."