Tuner Shop Suggestions

[Lawrence_P]

Hi, I just moved to Truckee from Pennsylvania with my new 2006 Subaru WRX. The elevation was really messing with my car so I wanted to get it Dyno Tuned. I did some research and both Midnight performance and EQ Tuning don't have an AWD Dyno, they just do open source. DB Tuned has an AWD Dyno but he wont be able to work on my car until Sept. 19 and I need my car before that. Here's the problem:

I bought my car at an auction in Pennsylvania without an accessport. In order to get my car tuned I had to send my ECU back to COBB and had them reflash it back to stock. I now have it back along with a new accessport. My car already has some mods on it (Exhaust, 18 G turbo) so I can't exactly drive my car anywhere without "hurting" it.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good tuner shop near this area?

Thanks

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Lawrence_P

Hi, I just moved to Truckee from Pennsylvania with my new 2006 Subaru WRX. The elevation was really messing with my car so I wanted to get it Dyno Tuned. I did some research and both Midnight performance and EQ Tuning don't have an AWD Dyno, they just do open source. DB Tuned has an AWD Dyno but he wont be able to work on my car until Sept. 19 and I need my car before that. Here's the problem:

I bought my car at an auction in Pennsylvania without an accessport. In order to get my car tuned I had to send my ECU back to COBB and had them reflash it back to stock. I now have it back along with a new accessport. My car already has some mods on it (Exhaust, 18 G turbo) so I can't exactly drive my car anywhere without "hurting" it.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a good tuner shop near this area?

Thanks

Unfortunately, the closest AWD dyno is DBTuned. If you're willing to travel, I'd recommend GST in Hayward, but they make have just as long a wait, if not longer than DBTuned's got. Then again, I think Paul might be moving the shop which is why there's a long wait right now.

I would think you should be able to get a decent base map straight from Cobb, as the 18G is not an uncommon setup. Have you checked Cobb's site for a suitable map? Considering Cobb is at high-altitude in Utah, they might be able to put something together for you that will get you by safely until you can get on a dyno.

[cody]

One minor correction: EQ Tuning (Ed) can and does tune with Protuner, the software that Cobb made specifically for tuners to make custom maps that can be flashed directly to the car and saved to the AP. They do also tune OS as you said.

If I were in your shoes, I'd schedule an appointment to get road tuned by Ed in Fairfield. He'll email you a basemap so you can drive there safely.

But assuming you don't like the idea of road tuning, which is understandable, GST and DB Tuned are both good options.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

One minor correction: EQ Tuning (Ed) can and does tune with Protuner, the software that Cobb made specifically for tuners to make custom maps that can be flashed directly to the car and saved to the AP. They do also tune OS as you said.

If I were in your shoes, I'd schedule an appointment to get road tuned by Ed in Fairfield. He'll email you a basemap so you can drive there safely.

But assuming you don't like the idea of road tuning, which is understandable, GST and DB Tuned are both good options.

That, and road tuning in Fairfield won't solve the elevation issues he's having.

[MikeK]

I recommend GST Motorsports in Hayward. It's a bit of a drive but Mike Warfield there has done all my tuning and I have never had an issue at any altitude.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

That, and road tuning in Fairfield won't solve the elevation issues he's having.

Ed has tuned many cars at sea level and in Reno so he's seen how sea level tunes run at this elevation and vice versa. My "Reno tune" happens to run great at sea level.

Also, it's safer to get tuned at sea level and drive hard at elevation than to get tuned at elevation and drive hard at sea level.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

Ed has tuned many cars at sea level and in Reno so he's seen how sea level tunes run at this elevation and vice versa. My "Reno tune" happens to run great at sea level.

Also, it's safer to get tuned at sea level and drive hard at elevation than to get tuned at elevation and drive hard at sea level.

The point is, it's doubly not worth the risk of road tuning when the road tune you get doesn't solve the elevation problems. It's not about the safety of the tune, it's about the lack of optimization. Getting an OTS map from Ed or using logs to remote tune is different.

[cody]

The point is, that the road tune at sea level will be 99.9% as high performance and safe as a tune at elevation.

If "it's not about the safety of the tune (), it's about the lack of optimization," an OTS map is going to be counterproductive. It's fine for a temporary fix to get him to a tuner, but not a permanent solution at all. And a remote tune is road tuning, but the OP would be expected to find safe roads in Truckee where he just moved to. Plus it's not going to be optimized without wideband data.

Are you arguing just to argue?

[Kevin M]

If the car has issues at elevation due to the lower air pressure, in what way does a road tune under different conditions solve those issues?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

Also, it's safer to get tuned at sea level and drive hard at elevation than to get tuned at elevation and drive hard at sea level.

This is a fallacy, Road or Dyno tune independent, especially if any changes to the intake path have been made.

If the intake calibration map is not correct and a tuner makes A/F table changes, the barometric compensation will be out of whack and can be outside the ECU's ability to correct.

[cody]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

If the car has issues at elevation due to the lower air pressure, in what way does a road tune under different conditions solve those issues?

The car most likely has issues due to being on the stock map at elevation.

Originally Posted by Dean

This is a fallacy, Road or Dyno tune independent, especially if any changes to the intake path have been made.

If the intake calibration map is not correct and a tuner makes A/F table changes, the barometric compensation will be out of whack and can be outside the ECU's ability to correct.

Many, many people live in Tahoe and Truckee with aftermarket turbos and were tuned at sea level. They drive hard at elevation and yet their car survives. Let's hear from Kevin Weiss and some of the other guys who were tuned at sea level but live in Tahoe/Truckee. I'm not aware of anyone having elevation issues except maybe Sperry, but that's not a daily driver situation.

You, (Dean), on the otherhand, blew your new motor because you tuned it up here and then drove it hard at a track at sea level without data logging to make sure it was safe.

In my opinion, the OP would be best served by getting tuned by a reputable tuner at sea level and maybe shooting a couple logs from elevation to the tuner to be safe.

[knucklesplitter]

OP: If (and only if) you have stock injectors and a stock or stock-sized intake then you will be probably be safe to drive the car IF (and only if) you stay out of boost. Even a few psi boost at part throttle would be okay too, but better safe than sorry. This can be harder to do than it sounds. You will also likely get CELs.

Ed should be able to get you a driveable base map to install for now. If not then I could put one together for you.

The most common issue with tunes related to elevation changes is boost control. Tunes at sea level are usually safer when going high than tunes at elevation going low for the following reasons:
-The car makes less power at high elevation at the same boost, so there is less load on the engine at higher elevation (all things being equal).
-The ECU program has tables that cut boost when the car goes up in elevation. Generally you will have lower boost up here than down at sea level unless the tuner tweaks these tables. BTW the Cobb Race Tuner software does not access these tables as far as I know, and that pisses me off.
- Turbos spool slower at higher elevation

The MAF sensor and barometric pressure sensor compensate the fueling at elevation... usually.

[sperry]

Once again, call or email Cobb. Ask them if they have a base map for the mods on your car. Tell them you live at high altitude. Chances are, they have or can get you something driveable. You can get the car running in a minimum amount of time, and for no additional cost over the money already spent on the AP.

Then worry about where to take the car for tuning.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

Many, many people live in Tahoe and Truckee with aftermarket turbos and were tuned at sea level. They drive hard at elevation and yet their car survives. Let's hear from Kevin Weiss and some of the other guys who were tuned at sea level but live in Tahoe/Truckee. I'm not aware of anyone having elevation issues except maybe Sperry, but that's not a daily driver situation.

You, (Dean), on the otherhand, blew your new motor because you tuned it up here and then drove it hard at a track at sea level without data logging to make sure it was safe.

Did you not read what I wrote?

My comments were specific to a specific table and modifications to the intake path. Those would apply no matter the tuning method or altitude. If you disagree with those, please specify why.

Unless you are clairvoyant, the root cause of my engine failure has yet to be determined and based on the current evidence, it is likely to be due to an under-performing injector at high load. I did make boost related changes to multiple tables at lower elevation to resolve an over boost situation that might have contributed or even caused the failure, but the cylinder that failed is not one of the usual suspects and I caught the situation fairly quickly. I will gladly provide results after the injectors get tested when I get the rebuild done. Don't fret, if I blew it up, I will take the blame/credit.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

The car most likely has issues due to being on the stock map at elevation.

That does not address my comment.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by cody

The car most likely has issues due to being on the stock map at elevation.

The stock map on a stock car works fine at elevation. It is too conservative and a little down on potential power vs low elevation, but it works fine. The problem is almost certainly that he has a stock map on a modded car. That 18g will not boost right on a stock turbo map - not up here, not down there.

Lawrence_P, what are all your mods? What specific issues are you having?

[van]

Welcome Lawrence!

[cody]

Originally Posted by Dean

Did you not read what I wrote?

My comments were specific to a specific table and modifications to the intake path. Those would apply no matter the tuning method or altitude. If you disagree with those, please specify why.

Unless you are clairvoyant, the root cause of my engine failure has yet to be determined and based on the current evidence, it is likely to be due to an under-performing injector at high load. I did make boost related changes to multiple tables at lower elevation to resolve an over boost situation that might have contributed or even caused the failure, but the cylinder that failed is not one of the usual suspects and I caught the situation fairly quickly. I will gladly provide results after the injectors get tested when I get the rebuild done. Don't fret, if I blew it up, I will take the blame/credit.

I did read what you wrote. You wrote that what I wrote was a fallacy and then offered an irrelevent piece of information. Did you read what you quoted?

KS seems to disagree that it's a "fallacy".

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

Tunes at sea level are usually safer when going high than tunes at elevation going low

[cody]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

That does not address my comment.

I realize he said it runs like crap due to elevation, but it probably has more to do with the 18G on the stock map. If not, and he meant it ran like crap before the 18G was installed, it could have been the exhaust and the stock map slowly killing the car. Who knows. But it doesn't really matter.

A tune at sea level by a competent tuner with experience with high elevation cars is perfectly fine for a car driven regularly at elevation. I've seen nothing in the OP that indicates that there's anything unique about this car that makes a sea level tune innapropriate. Maybe if it was on a standalone, sure, but it's not.

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

The stock map on a stock car works fine at elevation. It is too conservative and a little down on potential power vs low elevation, but it works fine. The problem is almost certainly that he has a stock map on a modded car. That 18g will not boost right on a stock turbo map - not up here, not down there.

Lawrence_P, what are all your mods? What specific issues are you having?

No disagreement here.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by cody

I did read what you wrote. You wrote that what I wrote was a fallacy and then offered an irrelevent piece of information. Did you read what you quoted?

KS seems to disagree that it's a "fallacy".

It is not irrelevant. My point was that any tune involving a intake change can be dangerous with an altitude change. Your claim was that one was better than the other.

I have seen a number of maps where tuners rather than taking the time to fix the intake map, just mess with the A/F tables for the WB reading they are looking for...

Originally Posted by KS

The MAF sensor and barometric pressure sensor compensate the fueling at elevation... usually.

The barometric tables can't compensate correctly when the intake map is wrong and A/F targets have been tweaked for a particular altitude. If the problem is beyond the real time trims ability to compensate, look out.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by van

Welcome Lawrence!

Yes, welcome!

Despite all the apparent bickering this is a pretty good forum. Maybe too technical of a forum sometimes, but in general when stuff is discussed/argued it is all done in good faith. I know for me personally when I discuss/argue with Dean, Scott, Kevin, Cody, or whomever, I usually come away from it better informed, especially when somebody disagrees with me.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by Dean

I have seen a number of maps where tuners rather than taking the time to fix the intake map, just mess with the A/F tables for the WB reading they are looking for...

Well, if that is what is done, then some weird things can happen with fueling and timing too. I do not like that method of tuning - it's a shortcut, but sometimes it just needs to be done that way. Methanol/water injection on the stock ECU is an example where you might *have* to do this. I avoid it at all costs.

So yes, if the A/F targets are tweaked to get the wideband readings right instead of properly adjusting the MAF table (aka intake map), then there could be some altitude issues with fueling. I do not know that for sure, but it is definitely possible.

In my experience, it is boost that is usually the issue though. Even with a good manual boost controller.

This discussion is way too technical - haha...

[100_Percent_Juice]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

in general when stuff is discussed/argued it is all done in good faith. I know for me personally when I discuss/argue with Dean, Scott, Kevin, Cody, or whomever, I usually come away from it better informed, especially when somebody disagrees with me.

Don't listen to Matt. I loathe all of these people and someday you will too.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by 100_Percent_Juice

Don't listen to Matt. I loathe all of these people and someday you will too.

Don't you have a clutch to swap?

And Hi Lawrence. Welcome to the chaos.

[Lawrence_P]

Hey everyone, thank you very much for all the replies. They helped. I called COBB and they found a map that matched my car pretty well and it's driving fine now. I still plan on going to DB Tuned, although Ed at EQ may be a good tuner, he does not have an AWD Dyno like DB does. He just has the open source/road tune, which I don't feel comfortable with.

Thanks again