Philosophy time!

[sperry]

In one word, what's the point... the meaning of life, soceity, the universe, etc. What is it that, as people, we should strive for?

If I could start again
a million miles away,
I would keep myself,
I would find a way.

--Trent

[ArthurS]

Where is 'sex' on the list?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by ArthurS

Where is 'sex' on the list?

Uh, that's either "fun" or "family" depending on the reasons for the sex.

[dknv]

ack, tricky, I couldn't vote twice.

[dknv]

Would anyone change their vote for Knowledge, if you were told "knowledge does not equal wisdom"?

[sperry]

Here's my breakdown of the catagories....

Money - The purpose of living is to aquire physical wealth.

Power - The purpose of living is to wield control over others, not necessiarily as "Hitler" as it sounds... trying to become the US President might fit in here.

Respect - The purpose of live is to earn the admiration of others.

Knowledge - The purpose of life is to learn all that you can learn before death.

Love - The purpose of life is to be in true love.

Fun - The purpose of life is to enjoy yourself.

Achievement - The purpose of life is to do things that no-one else has ever done.

Pain - The purpose of life is simply to suffer before you die. Quakers, sign up here.

Nothing - There is no purpose for living. (For the nihilists... "nice Marmot!")

Family - The purpose of life is to procreate, and raise a family.

42 - The meaning of Life, The Universe and Everything.

Other... - You tell me, I don't pretend to have *all* the reasons for living wrapped up into nice little catagories.


I voted for Knowledge. I figure, since our reason for existing isn't obvious, the reason we exist must be to try and understand why we exist. I don't figure we'll ever truly understand the nature of the universe, but the journey towards trying to figure it out is what "it's" all about. I know, it's very Tao, isn't it.... So that, and it's fun to drive fast.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

Would anyone change their vote for Knowledge, if you were told "knowledge does not equal wisdom"?

Wisdom is Knowledge extracted from experience.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

I would say that wisdom is a viewpoint extracted from knowledge *and* experience.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

I know, it's very Tao, isn't it....

It's very Matrix ...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I would say that wisdom is a viewpoint extracted from knowledge *and* experience.

Wisdom is a viewpoint? Explain yourself!!

IMO, Wisdom is being able to predict the world as a result of having experienced it already. It's litterally knowledge of the future obtained by understanding the past.

For example, a young, un-wise person may thing that a 3 day long bachelor party in Vegas is a good idea. Those of us that are more wise will predict that the party is actually going to be a nightmare, full of pain and misery. Our past experiences, <cough>Mexico<cough>, have given us the experience to know that your bachelor party is going to kick our asses.

Another example... I can read in a book and learn that some hypothetical snake's venom will make a man sick for 7 days. That's pure knowledge. I can also be bitten by the snake and learn 1st hand it takes 7 days to get over the venom. That's wisdom... I obtained my knowledge of the snake through 1st hand experience.

The importance of wisdom, it that it tends to be more useful and detailed than pure knowledge. I can read about properly apexing a corner, but until I do it, my cornering knowledge is incomplete. Or back to the snake... having been bitten not only tells me that the venom lasts for 7 days, it also tells me what the venom sickness feels like.

The human brain evolved to learn through experiences. Pure book learning simulates experiences, but not to the same fidelity as truly experiencing it. However, book learning also tends to be much faster than experience. It would take forever to get through a physics class if everyone had to get a kite, a key, and a thunderstorm to understand electricity.

But in the end, Wisdom is simply another brand of Knowledge. That's why I listed "Knowledge" as the meaning of life... for the purpose of this poll, it's not important how you aquire the knowledge, it's just important that it's your goal. A 15th Century Explorer and a 20th Century physist both dedicated their lived to knowledge, tho their methods are vastly different.

Wow... that got long... and my wisdom tells me most people won't bother to read it, simply cuz it's long..

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

Another example... I can read in a book and learn that some hypothetical snake's venom will make a man sick for 7 days. That's pure knowledge. I can also be bitten by the snake and learn 1st hand it takes 7 days to get over the venom. That's wisdom... I obtained my knowledge of the snake through 1st hand experience.

And, I can have wisdom in that I have faith that if a snake bites me it'll take 7 days to get over the venom -Without experiencing the pain.

So perhaps another angle, is that wisdom includes the ability to discern knowledge through either experience or faith - and then becomes one's viewpoint.

(I saw Matrix Reloaded last night.)

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

And, I can have wisdom in that I have faith that if a snake bites me it'll take 7 days to get over the venom -without experience the pain.

So perhaps another angle, is that wisdom can be the ability to discern knowledge through either experience or faith - and then becomes one's viewpoint.

(I saw the matrix last night.)

Astually, in that case... you have pure knowlwdge that the snake venom lasts 7 days. It's your wisdom that tells you more often than not pre knowledge is correct. Basically in the past, you've had pure knowledge that redicted an event that you later experienced. The fact that your experience coroborated your pure knowledge is in itself wisdom. You are wise to the fact that pure knowlege can mirror reality. This is why you can have faith that the snake bite venom will last 7 days.

It's very much like a little kid near the stove. "Don't touch that, it's hot!" mom says. The kid touches it anyway and gets burned. That kid has gained wisdom about the stove being hot, but more importantly, the kid has gained the wisdom to listen and believe what mom says is true. The next time she says, "Don't touch that, it's hot" the kid will likely not touch it, even if it's a hot plate and not the stove.

[sperry]

Faith and instinct are strange birds in this paradigm...

Faith is knowledge without any experience (remember that pure knowledge is usually passed down from someone that originally experienced it). Faith is more "pure" than pure knowledge it seems!

Instinct... that's wisdom without experience... there was no cognitive learning involved, either by book or by experience. Evolution tought you that lesson. Like learning to smile... you don't need to, it's an evolved instinct that allows people to communicate.

[dknv]

Oh yes - I forgot about instinct.

So would the '6th sense' fit into instinct? i.e., the person who has a bad feeling about taking a plane trip so he cancels it, then finds out there was a plane accident -- ala Final Destination.

But then, I suppose this would not be wisdom then, but simply reaction.

nevermind......

[sperry]

Originally Posted by dknv

Oh yes - I forgot about instinct.

So would the '6th sense' fit into instinct? i.e., the person who has a bad feeling about taking a plane trip so he cancels it, then finds out there was a plane accident -- ala Final Destination.

But then, I suppose this would not be wisdom then, but simply reaction.

nevermind......

I'm not sure I believe in any 6th sense type stuff. I've never felt anthing like that. However, the 5 (or 6 senses) are just imputs to our brains. They are only raw information used in decision making.

Let's say I thow a baseball at a little kid. If the kid's never been hit by something before, he'll probably just stand there and get popped! However, if he's had that experience, he'll try to get out of the way to avoid getting hit... and if he's played baseball before he may try to catch it! His eyes are giving him the information about the incoming baseball, but his wisdom/knowledge determins his reaction to it.

Similarily, if there is a 6th sense, you would have to have some experience using it in order to recognize the input from that sense. You'd have to have a "bad feeling", then have a coorelating bad incident in order to start understanding the 6th snese input. Or perhaps you could have someone instruct you about how to use that sense. Just like I can throw baseballs at the kid till he learns to get out of the way, or I can teach him to put up his glove and catch it.

(I'm not sure I'm making sense any longer... but this is so far the most interesting intellectual thread we've had on doink.net!)

[ArthurS]

Interesting stuff.....read through most of it and now I have a headache.

I already think to much with work, now my head is thinking even more.

A excellent quote, and one to live by:


Learn as if you were going to live forever. Live as if you were going to die tomorrow

[dknv]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'm not sure I believe in any 6th sense type stuff. I've never felt anthing like that.

Have you ever had deja vu? (Most people claim they have.)

Have you ever had a situation where the thought of a certain person popped into your brain - then the phone rings, and it's them?

Have you ever felt 'lucky' about something, and came to find out you were right to trust your feeling? Vice-versa, unlucky, with an unfortunate outcome because you overrode your feeling with logic - Then said "I knew I shouldn't have done that".

Have you ever felt a cold shiver out of the blue (some people refer to it as having 'someone walk over their grave' - i.e. past life grave I hope).

How about, out of the blue, a ringing in your ears?

Message in a bottle?

Talismans? (Lucky rabbit's foot, lucky penny, kiss for luck, crystals, and the list could go on & on.)

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

For example, a young, un-wise person may thing that a 3 day long bachelor party in Vegas is a good idea. Those of us that are more wise will predict that the party is actually going to be a nightmare, full of pain and misery. Our past experiences, <cough>Mexico<cough>, have given us the experience to know that your bachelor party is going to kick our asses.

Speaking of that... it's getting damn close now... :shock:

[sperry]

Have you ever had deja vu? (Most people claim they have.)

I'm had it. But the feeling of deja vu is caused when your brain takes a new experience and treats it like old data. You haven't actually experienced it before, you just feel like you did.

Have you ever had a situation where the thought of a certain person popped into your brain - then the phone rings, and it's them?

Same as deja vu... your mind tricks itself into thinking you were thinking about that person right before they called... in actuality you were thinking about a cheese sandwich.

BTW: this has happened to me. It was mothers day a few years back. We were just about to leave for church when the phone rang. I instantly had a terrible feeling about the call. My mom answered it. Turns out one of my sisters close friend's father die early that morning of an asthma attack. How do I explain that sinking feeling when the phone rang? Well, who calls you on Mother's day at 8am? I didn't actually think "now that's an odd time for the phone to ring..." I simply felt uneasy about the phone call. Call it intuition: the act of coming to a conclusion without consciously thinking about it.

Have you ever felt 'lucky' about something, and came to find out you were right to trust your feeling? Vice-versa, unlucky, with an unfortunate outcome because you overrode your feeling with logic - Then said "I knew I shouldn't have done that".

Nope.... my "luck" has always seemed to fall right on the line predicted by random chance. If I play blackjack, I tend to lose a couple bucks for every $100 I play.

Have you ever felt a cold shiver out of the blue (some people refer to it as having 'someone walk over their grave' - i.e. past life grave I hope).

My mom calles them "fresons" (she speaks french). I would consider them a biological response to something physical. Not supernatural.

How about, out of the blue, a ringing in your ears?

Same as a freson (pronounced w/ a french accent like "free song").

Message in a bottle?

The Police rule! Much better than Sting's solo work.

Talismans? (Lucky rabbit's foot, lucky penny, kiss for luck, crystals, and the list could go on & on.)

Never seemed to work for me, but I do enjoy good luck kisses!

Oh and those crystals piss me off, cuz people tend to hand them from the rear-view. Not only do they reflect blue light (making them look like cop lights under certain conditions which is illegal), they tend to wreak havoc on the human head during an accident... ask my ex's friend who has one eye thanks to a minor fender bender. If it's not fuzzy dice, it shouldn't be hanging from the rear-view!!

[KenpoKev]

Read Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear" for a fascinating look at human behavior as it relates to violence. Absolutely read it if you have a family (wife-daughter) It might save their life.

BTW: I voted Family, when it's all said and done, that's all you'll have left on your deathbed...along with Faith.

Cheers

[dknv]

Originally Posted by KenpoKev

Read Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear" for a fascinating look at human behavior as it relates to violence. Absolutely read it if you have a family (wife-daughter) It might save their life.
...

I read a summary of this book, it looks interesting. Extended title being "survival signals that protect us from violence". I'm going to have to check it out.