Help me understand HR 4437, and related arguments

[JonnydaJibba]

As far as I see it, HR 4437 seeks to criminalize all current illegal immigrants and those who house or help them. It also seeks to have a 700 mile fence built and actually enforce the protection of our borders by deporting and/or detaining illegal or undocumented immigrants. It would also give the state and local gov'ts federal rights when it comes to this. This is different from what Bush proposed right? I am for immigration, against illegal immigration and am trying to understand all sides and arguments so I can make an educated decision on where I stand. Is HR 4437 the best way to stop illegal immigration? It seems having 11 million criminals in the country all of a sudden could get expensive...

[sperry]

Normally I'm a pretty anti-immigration type person. I figure, if there are rules and procedures for coming to this country, they should be adheared to. People from everywhere are welcome here, but if you don't follow the rules, you should be sent packing.

However, there was an international journalist on the Daily Show last night that changed my mind. Much of the racial tension/unrest in europe (France especially) right now actually spans to the EU's poor handling of immigration. They criminalize their illegal immigrants, which leads to tremendous feelings of inequity and oppression/resentment amonst both legal and illegal immigrants. Immigration is actually one of the few social problems we handle correctly here in the US. I'm not saying we should just open the flood gates, but we certainly shouldn't start criminalizing people that came here just looking for a better life. The US was founded by people like that, and our immigrants actually are one of our biggest assets as a nation.

Plus, it's not like the illegal immigrant problem in the states is actually that big of a "problem", at least it's not a criminal one. The vast majority of illegals keep their noses clean, because if they get busted for anything, they get sent back. So they abide by the law, and work hard at the jobs that most other people won't do. And with determination they eventually make a decent life for themselves (or at least their children). It may be illegal, but it's the American way... at least the way the American way was before it became all about plasma TVs and 20" rims.

[JonnydaJibba]

I think some sort of immigration reform is in order, but criminalizing so many people like that could create a great amount of unrest and I'm sure even more anemosity (sp?) toward immigrants in genenal, legal or not. As I'm finding by more and more reading, HR 4437 seems like a step in the right direction, but too extreme an action.

[JC]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

I think some sort of immigration reform is in order

Why? Do we really have a problem? They provide cheap labor for jobs that most Americans don't want to do. If you ask me there are real problems that the government needs to be worried about before some BS political pandering to trailer park rednecks about immigration. How about some health care reform? Maybe deal with our deficit? The poor state of education? Seems like there are lots of important things taking a backseat to something that's not even a problem.

Originally Posted by sperry

However, there was an international journalist on the Daily Show last night that changed my mind. Much of the racial tension/unrest in europe (France especially) right now actually spans to the EU's poor handling of immigration. They criminalize their illegal immigrants, which leads to tremendous feelings of inequity and oppression/resentment amonst both legal and illegal immigrants. Immigration is actually one of the few social problems we handle correctly here in the US. I'm not saying we should just open the flood gates, but we certainly shouldn't start criminalizing people that came here just looking for a better life. The US was founded by people like that, and our immigrants actually are one of our biggest assets as a nation.

I saw that too, I always like it when he's a guest. Seems like a really intelligent man.

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by JC

Why? Do we really have a problem? They provide cheap labor for jobs that most Americans don't want to do. If you ask me there are real problems that the government needs to be worried about before some BS political pandering to trailer park rednecks about immigration. How about some health care reform? Maybe deal with our deficit? The poor state of education? Seems like there are lots of important things taking a backseat to something that's not even a problem.

That's a good point, but I still believe in time this could become a much worse problem. Just 6 years ago there were 7 million illegal immigrants. Today there are 11 million (INS and Census Bureau estimations). There are only more and more coming, the majority of which are from Mexico.

Also, we may not have a problem with the illegal immigrants who come here to live, but there are people who don't like the U.S. and have the power to destroy this country, in one form or another. So not having secure borders poses a threat for national security, which could also become another problem.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JC

Why? Do we really have a problem? They provide cheap labor for jobs that most Americans don't want to do. If you ask me there are real problems that the government needs to be worried about before some BS political pandering to trailer park rednecks about immigration. How about some health care reform? Maybe deal with our deficit? The poor state of education? Seems like there are lots of important things taking a backseat to something that's not even a problem.



I saw that too, I always like it when he's a guest. Seems like a really intelligent man.

X1000

Immigration reform sounds like a red herring for the Bush administration to give us something to talk about other than their tremendous failures in foreign policy, the deficit, healthcare, and nation building.

I mean, why else would this issue suddenly pop up out of nowhere? It's not like illegal immigration is a real problem for most of the country, it's really only a local problem for CA and TX mostly. But it's pretty easy to look good in front of middle America when you make is sound like there are all these dirty illegals spilling over the border into the country, "oh noes, there's so many of 'em it's not long before they overrun your Iowan corn fields!!". So after scaring people this doesn't really concern (the same people that voted for Bush last election), you come down hard and tough on the manufactured situation and look like a bad-ass problem solver.

I don't buy it.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

That's a good point, but I still believe in time this could become a much worse problem. Just 6 years ago there were 7 million illegal immigrants. Today there are 11 million (INS and Census Bureau estimations). There are only more and more coming, the majority of which are from Mexico.

Also, we may not have a problem with the illegal immigrants who come here to live, but there are people who don't like the U.S. and have the power to destroy this country, in one form or another. So not having secure borders poses a threat for national security, which could also become another problem.

The thing that you're missing is that America is a nation of immigrants.

If we're "overrun" the worst that can happen is that the nature of our country changes. IMO, that's the whole point of America. If in 50 years our nation is predominantly latino, so be it, that's just the next step in the evolution of the US. As long as the constitution remains, and the Bill of Rights are still around, and there are a few people with common sense running the place, we'll be okay. It's not like the white majority is doing all that great a job these days.

And, as JC mentioned, we *need* illegal immigrants to compete with countries like China, where labor is so much cheaper. CA especially requires immigrant labor, or the whole certral valley agricultural market will die. As "wrong" as it may seem to turn a blind eye to the illegal immigrants, we need them here, they're the life blood of our economy. Criminalizing them and jailing them is going to hurt a lot of US businesses, tax our judicial system, and piss off Mexico and mexican immigrants both legal and illegal.

Besides, building a massive wall on the border is a pretty threatening move to Mexico, especially when we're a well known agressive nation these days.

[MikeK]

"They took our jerrbs!!"

[JC]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

That's a good point, but I still believe in time this could become a much worse problem. Just 6 years ago there were 7 million illegal immigrants. Today there are 11 million (INS and Census Bureau estimations). There are only more and more coming, the majority of which are from Mexico.

Also, we may not have a problem with the illegal immigrants who come here to live, but there are people who don't like the U.S. and have the power to destroy this country, in one form or another. So not having secure borders poses a threat for national security, which could also become another problem.

Worse than what? Prove to me it's a problem. People are mad because an immigrant will dig ditches for a dollar less an hour than white boy who failed out of high school because he can't read who wouldn't dig the ditch regardless. What we need to be worried about is making sure that guy can read so he doesn't fail out of school in the first place.

I went to Southern GA for spring break and stopped in this little cafe on the way back. Two girls who looked to be 16-18 were working there. One of them had to write Potato Salad on the special board and couldn't spell Potato OR Salad. It took the two a good combined 10 minutes to come up with Potatoe Salad. THAT'S a problem. THAT'S what we need to be worried about.

It infuriates me that people will put our country further into horrific debt trying to shift the blame for their problems to someone else. If they would just admit that we have huge problems with education, health care, and foriegn policy maybe we could make actual progress instead of throwing money at a straw man to make us feel better.

My. $.02
JC

[JonnydaJibba]

I understand all that but I hate the fact that it's wrong and it still happens. I mean every country at one point had people immigrating into it to start a nation, we aren't that different from the rest. It also bothers me that we rely on this cheap, illegal labor so much. It sucks to me that our country has come to this, and now we are forced to deal with it.

If in 50 years our country does become predominantly Latino wouldn't you rather them be legal citizens? Or would it be better that they just take up space and not have a say in the country in which they populate most of? I'm not sure how much sense that last sentance makes... So would a better solution be to give these 11 million "undocumented citizens" 6 year work visas and attempt to keep the rest out? And if these people are granted amnesty through this, then they will have to be paid minimum wage right? I mean either way it seems the agricultural industry loses.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

It is a security risk to have undocumented people crossing the border. I think we should put mass processing centers on the borders, and let whoever wants to come in come in - as long as they go through the defined process. A return to Ellis Island style mass immigration, if you will. The rest of the border should be absolutely locked down. That's what a military is supposed to be for, protecting your own borders, not off camping out in 70 thousand other countries flung around the world. No more illegal immigrants, only legal ones and dead ones.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

It is a security risk to have undocumented people crossing the border. I think we should put mass processing centers on the borders, and let whoever wants to come in come in - as long as they go through the defined process. A return to Ellis Island style mass immigration, if you will. The rest of the border should be absolutely locked down. That's what a military is supposed to be for, protecting your own borders, not off camping out in 70 thousand other countries flung around the world. No more illegal immigrants, only legal ones and dead ones.

Would you grant amnesty to those that are already here?

[JC]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

I understand all that but I hate the fact that it's wrong and it still happens. I mean every country at one point had people immigrating into it to start a nation, we aren't that different from the rest. It also bothers me that we rely on this cheap, illegal labor so much. It sucks to me that our country has come to this, and now we are forced to deal with it.

Actually most countries are born from their native populations. It's only the "colonial" countries that are made from immigrants, which is essentially the Americas. Though a lot of other countries were formed by European influence most are back to local control. Our country has come to what? We are still the economic and military force in the world. You somehow think illegal immigrants are hurting this?

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

If in 50 years our country does become predominantly Latino wouldn't you rather them be legal citizens? Or would it be better that they just take up space and not have a say in the country in which they populate most of? I'm not sure how much sense that last sentance makes... So would a better solution be to give these 11 million "undocumented citizens" 6 year work visas and attempt to keep the rest out? And if these people are granted amnesty through this, then they will have to be paid minimum wage right? I mean either way it seems the agricultural industry loses.

We will be predominately Latino in 50 years regardless, they are already the largest minority. Some 40 odd million people and are the fastest growing populace. I won't complain about more hot latina women. You realize that most of latino population is here legally and that illegal immigrants children are US citizens. It's not an exponentially growing "problem" by any means. Don't give in to the fear mongering.

I want you and Austin to tell me how you intend to pay for your immigration reform. Who's after school programs are you going to cut? Or are going to print more money and cripple our economy with inflation?

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

Would you grant amnesty to those that are already here?

If they came forward for processing, yes. Otherwise they would be hunted down like deer.

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

It is a security risk to have undocumented people crossing the border. I think we should put mass processing centers on the borders, and let whoever wants to come in come in - as long as they go through the defined process. A return to Ellis Island style mass immigration, if you will. The rest of the border should be absolutely locked down. That's what a military is supposed to be for, protecting your own borders, not off camping out in 70 thousand other countries flung around the world. No more illegal immigrants, only legal ones and dead ones.

+1 MILLION

Additionally, all of these illegal immigrants that come to this country do not pay taxes, yet they are the first ones in line to tax the welfare system, which should also be a focal point of government reform.

I have no problems with anyone who wants to immigrate to this country legally to better their family. If they go through all of the proper channels and become a citizen, learn to read and write English, and contribute to the tax base of this country, then they become an asset to our economy.

I think one of the biggest things that ticks me off is the fact that so many illegal immigrants refuse to learn Englsih, yet we cater to them. Go look at a DMV manual, signs at the local Wal-Mart, or even welfare forms. Most of them are in two languages. Do you think that if you were and illegal immigrant in another country that they would cater to you and put up all the signs and forms in English? I highly doubt it.

[JonnydaJibba]

I dunno, how are any of the governments faulty programs going to get reformed? By taking money from one thing and putting towards another. That is where we decide what is more important. Making them all illegal would be way too expensive, so I think that takes a low priority in comparison to education and welfare reform. But beefing up border security (IMO) seems higher priority than certain other things, but education and welfare reform still are top priority.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

If they came forward for processing, yes. Otherwise they would be hunted down like deer.

I'm a little too concerned w/ the psychological/racial/civil rights issues associated w/ telling a large sect of the population to "come forward for processing or we'll hunt you down like deer". I don't believe we'll be able to convince all those people that we mean them no harm, all they have to do it come forward.

If we're going to close the border for "security" reasons, not only will we have to allow unlimited immigration, we'll also have to grant all existing immigrants amnesty, and we're gonna have to scrape together a shitload of money to run the system.. maybe we can cancel that whole war on drugs waste of money and use that cash.

Unfortunately, I don't think that a closed border will actually make us significantly more secure, at least not for the money it'll cost.

[JC]

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

I have no problems with anyone who wants to immigrate to this country legally to better their family. If they go through all of the proper channels and become a citizen, learn to read and write English, and contribute to the tax base of this country, then they become an asset to our economy.

I think one of the biggest things that ticks me off is the fact that so many illegal immigrants refuse to learn Englsih, yet we cater to them. Go look at a DMV manual, signs at the local Wal-Mart, or even welfare forms. Most of them are in two languages. Do you think that if you were and illegal immigrant in another country that they would cater to you and put up all the signs and forms in English? I highly doubt it.

Most people are incapable of immigrating here legally. I guess they are just screwed huh? You realize English is NOT the official language of the US right?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they are paying for this.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

+1 MILLION

Additionally, all of these illegal immigrants that come to this country do not pay taxes, yet they are the first ones in line to tax the welfare system, which should also be a focal point of government reform.

I have no problems with anyone who wants to immigrate to this country legally to better their family. If they go through all of the proper channels and become a citizen, learn to read and write English, and contribute to the tax base of this country, then they become an asset to our economy.

I think one of the biggest things that ticks me off is the fact that so many illegal immigrants refuse to learn Englsih, yet we cater to them. Go look at a DMV manual, signs at the local Wal-Mart, or even welfare forms. Most of them are in two languages. Do you think that if you were and illegal immigrant in another country that they would cater to you and put up all the signs and forms in English? I highly doubt it.

How much money do you think we'll make by taxing people that work for a dollar a day? IMO, the work they do far outways their burden on our social system.

And the US doesn't have an official language. How about you learn spanish and we'll convert everything to that?

[JonnydaJibba]

Originally Posted by JC

Most people are incapable of immigrating here legally. I guess they are just screwed huh? You realize English is NOT the official language of the US right?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they are paying for this.

Yeah they are just screwed. They are victims of their circumstances and that sucks, but it doesn't give them the right to come here and not pay taxes because our country was blind to see that we rely on them so much. It's no more right then kiddies making Nike shoes (I dunno if that still happens or not).

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by JC

Most people are incapable of immigrating here legally. I guess they are just screwed huh? You realize English is NOT the official language of the US right?

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me how they are paying for this.

I guess I missunderstood all of the history classes and such that I took in high school and college that seemed to stress that English was pretty much the official language of the US. Maybe I was just hungover those days .

The "They" that you refer to who will be paying for this is you and I, and every other American tax payer.

[JC]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

Yeah they are just screwed. They are victims of their circumstances and that sucks, but it doesn't give them the right to come here and not pay taxes.

They still pay taxes you know, just not income tax. It's not like they say "Oh I'm hear illegally, can you get rid of that sales tax for me." They usually make less than $20k /yr anyway which means essentially they'd pay no income tax anyway.

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

I guess I missunderstood all of the history classes and such that I took in high school and college that seemed to stress that English was pretty much the official language of the US. Maybe I was just hungover those days .

Maybe our education system just sucks. You can look it up, I'm not lying to you.

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

The "They" that you refer to who will be paying for this is you and I, and every other American tax payer.

So now you are raising my taxes AND making me pay more for services? THANKS! Taking money out of my pocket is a great way to help the economy.

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by sperry

How much money do you think we'll make by taxing people that work for a dollar a day? IMO, the work they do far outways their burden on our social system.

And the US doesn't have an official language. How about you learn spanish and we'll convert everything to that?

All of the illegal immigrants that I have ever came in contact with were actaully paid the same wage as their legal counterparts. Last year we had a couple of illegals here at work in the manufacturing facility that were making over $12.00/hr. We actually helped them become US citizen though and they have been an asset to our company.

I don't see how you can say that the US does not have an official language when one of the requirements for the citizenship test is to be able to read and write English. Additionally, let me go see what the constitution was written in....

[SpecB#127]

Originally Posted by JonnydaJibba

Yeah they are just screwed. They are victims of their circumstances and that sucks, but it doesn't give them the right to come here and not pay taxes because our country was blind to see that we rely on them so much. It's no more right then kiddies making Nike shoes (I dunno if that still happens or not).

+1.

And I do think that Nike finally put the cabash on child slave labor in those Asian countries.

[JC]

Originally Posted by SpecB#127

I don't see how you can say that the US does not have an official language when one of the requirements for the citizenship test is to be able to read and write English. Additionally, let me go see what the constitution was written in....

http://ask.yahoo.com/20011107.html