The Official Brake Pad Thread

[MikeSTI]

I need new pads

what should I get or look for when looking at brake pads

so far I have these as possible chocies:

Endless SS-S Pads
FERRODO DS2500
Carbotech Panther Plus


[MattR] discuss [/MattR]

[sperry]

I ran Axxis Ultimates for a long time. They're the OEM pads for StopTech brake kits.

PROS:
- Great for Autocross
- Great for Street
- Not too expensive
- Quiet

CONS:
- *Lots* of red/black dust
- Not sufficient for hi-temp track use... I ruined a set of pad/rotors at Reno-Fernley

I'm still using these on my SVX, which needed a little bit of help because of the car's weight. These pads plus a set of StopTech rotors on the car have made the stock brakes adiquate for my driving style.

However, I've stepped up to StopTech Club Spec Race pads for the WRX. I need something that can take track temperatures, which the Ultimates can't.

[sperry]

Regarding the pads you mentioned Mike:

I don't know anything about the Endless pads, except I'm going to assume they're expensive as hell, since they're made by Endless.

I know Matt loves his Ferrodos... and after driving his car with them on there, they really seem to be a nice match to the STi Brembos. They grip *much* better than the OEM pads.

I've heard nothing but good things about the Carbotechs. Many people use the Panther+ pads for autocross. I'll bet they're on par with the Axxis Ultimates.

[MikeSTI]

Endless SS-S Pads = $340

SS-S Sport Similar to the Endless Type SS-Y compound, yet developed for the intermediate street driver allowing greater fade resistance. Ideal for both light and heavy weight vehicles.

Rated by Endelss:

9 Noise Level
8 Initial Response
7 Durability
7 Controllability
7 Pedal Feel
7 Fade Resistance

Type: Non-Asbestos
Driving Field: Winding Street
user Level: Beginner/Intermediate
Appropriate Rotor Temperature: Fahrenheit: 160-840
Average Coefficient of Friction: 0.3-0.4
Recommended Tire Use: Radial

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=brake+pads

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FERODO DS2500 = $255

As seen in the graph, the DS2500 material has a friction level of approximatively 0.50 which remains constant at any speed and at any temperature that the brake system is working at.

The DS2500 compound is designed for racing applications thanks to its excellent speed and temperature sensitivity characteristics but it can also be used for fast road use, being a popular choice of owners of high performance cars such as Imprezas.


The main characteristics of DS2500 are:

Race developed
Performs equally well on heavy and light cars
20% less pad wear than competitive products
Minimal bedding-in. Supplied ready to use
Disc friendly
Consistent friction level with changing temperatures and speeds to give optimal pedal modulation
High friction level at low temperature (good cold braking)
High friction level at very high temperatures
35% less compressibility than competitive products (racing pedal feel)
Less noise for increased driving comfort

http://www.i-club.com/forums/showthr...ght=brake+pads

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Carbotech Panther Plus = $315

The Panther Plus compound is good for AutoX or moderate track use. It can be used on the street. However, with an aggressive compound like this, dust and noise can be expected. The Mu is 0.54-0.56 with a temp range of about 150-1250F.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...ght=brake+pads

[Dean]

Aparently, there is some litigation going on... Aparently, Carobotech=relabled Hawk pads. Panther + = HP+ Bobcat = HPS... I have a set of the Panther +s sitting around for the Stoptechs.

I really like the new formula EBC Greens, I ran old and new formula exclusivly in the stock WRX calipers and they did quite well including on the track. And they are reasonably priced from Tire Rack, and may be even better with a Khail discount. For a performance pad, I have never seen one that stops as well cold as these, and still held up on the track.

I have the Axxis Ultimates in my Stoptechs, and aparently Mike had them at one track day, and I ran them at Infineon for 200 or so miles, plus proabably 5-10K street and they barely show any wear. I think with the larger Stoptech, and Brembo surface area, they can handle track days better than the stock WRX setup that Scott experienced. Also, as you get more experienced on the track, you brake less.

If you want slightly more heat resistance, I'd go for the Hawk HP+s also available at Tire Rack. Probably a little noisier than the EBCs.

There is no such thing as a non-dusting pad, and if you drive spiritedly, especially at a track, it is effectively molton goo being slung at your wheels at potentialy well over 100MPH. Waxing your wheels will help more than anything else, but just realize you will get "dust" period.

Also, Rotors are a wear item... Expect them to last only for 2-4 sets of high performance pads from any manufacturer.

Also, all performance pads may make noise. Again, it is the nature of the beast.

I have not tried Endless or Fedora, but they are some of the few pads I haven't tried since I started performance driving. Certianley not a common name thrown about in either the autocross or "track day" crowd, or I would have tried them by now.

[Dean]

Based on pricing, I would avoid both the endless, and Fedora... The pads I've listed are street, autocross, and track proven, and much less expensive.

TireRack Retail For the STI: (Khail may be able to get another 10-25% off..

Greens = $89.10F/$62.10R Best Bang for your buck IMHO
HP+ = $140F/$81R
HPS = $109F/$67R

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Dean

I have the Axxis Ultimates in my Stoptechs, and aparently Mike had them at one track day

Which Mike? If you are referring to me, I used EBC reds at the track day, and I have ordered some new ones for Thunderhill.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Which Mike? If you are referring to me, I used EBC reds at the track day, and I have ordered some new ones for Thunderhill.

No, I was refering to Mike Egan who had my Stoptechs and Axxis Unltimates at a track day before selling them to me.

I like the EBC Reds also as a track pad on the stock WRX calipers, but they are not as good as the greens on the street or autocross. And on the larger Brembos, I think the Greens are going to hold up OK at the track.

[sperry]

Dean, there is a big sticker on the Axxis Ultimates that come with the StopTechs that reads "NOT FOR TRACK USE". They will fade at high temperatures. And on smaller brakes like the stock WRX ones, at track temperatures they will turn into charcoal and you will wear your rotors instead of the pads. I've still got my rotors that were destroyed at Reno-Fernley if you'd like to see em.

Also, stick a feather in *my* hat since I've never heard of Fedora pads... just the Ferrodo ones that Matt's got.

Finally... did EBC change their Greens, or do they still put cracks into rotors?

[MattR]

I really like my Ferodo DS 2500's as Scott said.. And After talking to Myles at Race Comp engineering, (Who is a very compitnent STi track tuner)...I am convinced they are the best pad for my use.

They work great on the street, they have a very consistent feel and grab very well...Sometimes when their really cold first thing in the morning, you can feel them grabbing a little less, but that goes away quickly...

They are great on autocross courses, because they do grab well at low or high temps...

I have not has them on the track yet, but I did run one Solo Trial with them, and I can say that they are indeed an improvement over stock...

They are the way to go IMO...

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, there is a big sticker on the Axxis Ultimates that come with the StopTechs that reads "NOT FOR TRACK USE". They will fade at high temperatures. And on smaller brakes like the stock WRX ones, at track temperatures they will turn into charcoal and you will wear your rotors instead of the pads. I've still got my rotors that were destroyed at Reno-Fernley if you'd like to see em.

Also, stick a feather in *my* hat since I've never heard of Fedora pads... just the Ferrodo ones that Matt's got.

Finally... did EBC change their Greens, or do they still put cracks into rotors?

I have a better thought on where you should stick the feather. I appear to have Linux on the brain Linux = Fedora... And I think it is only one "r" in Brakes = Ferodo.

You are right, the Ultimates in the stock WRX calipers are not up to 30+ minute sessions at a high speed track like RF. I beleieve I said as much if you read my post...

I'm still not sure how you managed that. Usually an overheated pad will crumble to bits, especially in a cross drilled, or slotted application and then the backing plate eats the rotor. I never did get to see them, and would be interested in doing so.

That said, I did run the Ultimates in my Stoptechs at Infineon for 2 days in addition to the 1 day Mike E. ran them at whatever track he was at and all the street miles both of us put on them, and they are still in good shape as are the rotors. I would not do so with R compounds, but up to Azenis Sports, that is my experience, and I would expect the STI Brembos to be similar. They are rated to 932 degrees which is equivelent to mild track usage on a brake system capable of disipating a reasonable amount of heat which we know is an issue with the stock WRX setup.

All the EBC formulas have been updated. The older greens did tend to cause the rotors to occasionaly appear grooved after heavy use, but cracking was not an issue, and they evened out after some street use. The new fomula wears as smooth as any other pad I have used. The Reds have always been fine. The biggest advantage of the greens IMHO is the awesome cold stopping. The reds aren't quite as good stone cold, but last a little better, and handle heat better, so are better for hard track use. But again, I think the emproved heat capacity of the larger Stoptech/Brembo systems should allow the greans to be used for light track use. I ran the greens on the stock WRX setup at Laguna last year, and they did very well.

I still think the EBCs are the best bang for your buck in the pads I have tried so far, and in many respects outperform pads twice their price.

Mike K, what do you think of your EBC reds?

To stop quickly, and have reasonable pad life in high performance applications, both the pad, and the rotor must wear in a classic steel rotor & composite pad system. I have run probably 20 different pad/car combinations in track and autocross use now, and without exception, the better pads wear rotors more. Wearing out rotors is the price of good stopping power. Expect to replace rotors every 500-1500 track miles or 2-5 sets of performance pads, and if you get more, consider yourself lucky.

Learning to brake smoothly, and manage your brakes is probably the best way to make both your pads, and rotors last.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Dean

Mike K, what do you think of your EBC reds?

On the street, they were average when the weather was warmer. They needed a lot of pedal force and they made noise. Dusting was no problem though. When the weather turned cold they were scary. First brake application in the morning and nothing there.

On the track though, they were awesome. After a couple of laps they felt noticably better, less pedal force required for the same amount of braking. No fade at any point during the day either. They didn't last very long though, I used half the material at our track day, then I gave them to tyson for thunderhill, so I assume they are daed after just 2 track days.

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by MattR

I really like my Ferodo DS 2500's as Scott said.. And After talking to Myles at Race Comp engineering, (Who is a very compitnent STi track tuner)...I am convinced they are the best pad for my use.

They work great on the street, they have a very consistent feel and grab very well...Sometimes when their really cold first thing in the morning, you can feel them grabbing a little less, but that goes away quickly...

They are great on autocross courses, because they do grab well at low or high temps...

I have not has them on the track yet, but I did run one Solo Trial with them, and I can say that they are indeed an improvement over stock...

They are the way to go IMO...

I have some on the way!

thanks Matt for making this easy

[MattR]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

I have some on the way!

thanks Matt for making this easy

yeah, good choice man...you won;t be disappointed.

[LetItRev]

Hey Mike,

Let me know when you are going to install these. I want to learn how to do it. It's been a while since I've done brakes.

[MikeSTI]

Originally Posted by LetItRev

Hey Mike,

Let me know when you are going to install these. I want to learn how to do it. It's been a while since I've done brakes.

ok will do

it will be my first time also but I'm sure there's nothing to it :wink:

[MattR]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

ok will do

it will be my first time also but I'm sure there's nothing to it :wink:

Sti brake pads are SUPER easy to swap...If you guys want help, let me know, but it's very simple and quick

[MikeSTI]

thanks Matt if they come with instructions I can problly get it done, but with it being my first time I wouldn't mind the help with locating the tabs if they dont just jump out at me

[MattR]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

thanks Matt if they come with instructions I can problly get it done, but with it being my first time I wouldn't mind the help with locating the tabs if they dont just jump out at me

yeah, there's no instructions...But like I said, it's easy...

Fronts:
Remove Wheel
Take safety pins off of brake retention pins
tap lightly out, using an awl worked on mine.
Watch out for tension clip, it got load on it.
Lightly tap pads from the front, they will slide out the back of caliper.
Install is exact opposite, make sure to get your heat shields on correctly, there's an arrow on them.
Reinstall safety clips!!! Don;t forget them...

Rears
Even easier, you'll see.

Enjoy.

[Dean]

If you are going from used to new pads, shouldn't there bea step to compress the pistons, probably while the old pads are still in?

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

If you are going from used to new pads, shouldn't there bea step to compress the pistons, probably while the old pads are still in?

Well, yeah, you have to compress the pistonS a little bit to get the new ones back in.

[MikeSTI]

Bump -

what would be a good pad to put on the Viper? mom wants new pads.

they need to be good enough for track and auto cross but still work on the streets.

any Ideas would help. I was looking at the Hawk HPS pads but not sure thats the best route.......

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeSTI

Bump -

what would be a good pad to put on the Viper? mom wants new pads.

they need to be good enough for track and auto cross but still work on the streets.

any Ideas would help. I was looking at the Hawk HPS pads but not sure thats the best route.......

I would guess that due to the large size of the rotors/calipers something like a Hawk HP+ would be good on that car for street and light track use.

[Dean]

Poerterfiled R4-S s might be a good choice as well.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I would guess that due to the large size of the rotors/calipers something like a Hawk HP+ would be good on that car for street and light track use.

My experience with HPS+ is that they make a lot of noise on the street and emit Toxic Evil Dusttm (T.E.D. label courtesy of sperry). If that's acceptable collateral damage then they might work.