Tire Shaving Question.

[MattR]

Okay, I have decided on some Toyo RA-1's For track tires. I am still undecided on size, Choices:

235-40/ 17 (Smaller Overall Diameter + more width)
235-45/ 17 ( Little taller, little bit thinner.)

I'm thinking the 40's.

Anyway, for those of you that have run them before, do I need to shave them down, I've heard 3/32 is good, the tire comes with 8/32. Your thoughts? I want to use these for Solo Trials and Track days.

Thanks in Advance.

[MattR]

Just doing some research, good info here...for my own info.
http://features.evolutionm.net/article/evomfeatures/46

"The common shave for a full race set-up is at least 4/32. For Track day events we recommend at least 6/32 shave. If you plan on using them for everyday summer driving, then leave them full skid. It is important to leave the tires with as much tread as possible for street driving in case of rain."

[AtomicLabMonkey]

We run shaved RA-1's, 275/40/17s on the shop car.. I can't remember off the top of my head what exact tread depth we start out with. In any case, within 3 or 4 sessions most of the recognizable tread is gone and it's practically a slick. I have no direct experience with unshaved ones yet, but I would assume they could last a bit longer if you're looking for longevity. If you're looking to win in competition, then definitely shave them down. With full tread the tires will be squirming around and won't feel as crisp.

[Dean]

I thought you were going to try the Dunlop SP Super Sport Race in 225/45s? Only $119 in Sparks.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

I thought you were going to try the Dunlop SP Super Sport Race in 225/45s? Only $119 in Sparks.

I've found a few questionable reviews for what I'm using them for. Basically saying that they feel about like an RE070 Stock Sti tire or a Falken Azenis Sport. And the RA-1 are proven performers.

I think an RA-1 at 5/32 is what I need.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by MattR

Just doing some research, good info here...for my own info.
http://features.evolutionm.net/article/evomfeatures/46

I don't agree with their statement about RA-1s not needing heat cycling. It might not be as important for max life as with other tires, but it definitely takes 1-2 heat cycles for the tires to develop maximum grip. The first session out they'll be relatively slick from mold release compound and whatnot.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

I've found a few questionable reviews for what I'm using them for. Basically saying that they feel about like an RE070 Stock Sti tire or a Falken Azenis Sport. And the RA-1 are proven performers.

I think an RA-1 at 5/32 is what I need.

Just some more food for thought.

I'm not sure you will find the RA-1s that much stickier either. The RA-1s are not as sticky as either Kuhmo Victoracers, or Ecstas. I have them on the Stealth and was quite disappointed with them compared to the Kumhos. And of course, Hoosiers are even stickier. I would say the Azenis Sports are very similar to the RA-1s. The Dunlops are probably pretty similar as well.

My other thouhgt is that unless I'm mistaken, you do not have camber plates, so you are stuck at about 1-1.5 degrees in the front.

IMHO, that is probably severly limiting your traction, and more importantly promoting shoulder wear. R compounds more than street tires need proper alignment due to thier stiff sidewalls. With your alignment, you may find that you are only running on the ouside 2 inches of tire in a corner.

How have your REs, and Sports worn at auto cross?

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I don't agree with their statement about RA-1s not needing heat cycling. It might not be as important for max life as with other tires, but it definitely takes 1-2 heat cycles for the tires to develop maximum grip. The first session out they'll be relatively slick from mold release compound and whatnot.

I think they are saying they don't "need" to be brouhgt up to temperature and then left to cool for 24 hours for maximum tread life.

[MattR]

Ah...good point there Dean. I think I can only get to about -1.8 of camber with my setup. And now that I'm reading, perhaps the RA-1 would not work well with my limited camber, that is a big influence on the performance of that tire.

The reviews on the Dunlops are all over, I'm focusing more on heavier cars now, and people seem to really like their performance on A4's, Evo's and VW R32's. Those cars probably handle the tires a lot more like the Subaru that the reviews from Boxter and S2000 drivers.

I have not had any traction issues at the track days I've run on my RE070's, but I only have a 70% pair of those to make it though street tire in Autocross this season. If I'm going to have to buy tires for Solo Trial and track, I want something that will perform a bit better.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

I think they are saying they don't "need" to be brouhgt up to temperature and then left to cool for 24 hours for maximum tread life.

Could have been, but they weren't saying it very well.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

If I'm going to have to buy tires for Solo Trial and track, I want something that will perform a bit better.

So try a set of something cheap. Unless I'm mistaken, the RA-1s are like $200 a tire. that is almost 2 sets of some of the other choices.

Also, the Azenis, and the RE070s might be better for trials since there isn't time for the tires to really get hot like a track day. the RA-1s are not good cold. That was part on my problem with them on the Stealth. After coming in off a freeway run on them to Lovelock, they just got colder and harder and slower each run. The next morning they were just awful. Both Kumhos are better cold.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

Also, the Azenis, and the RE070s might be better for trials since there isn't time for the tires to really get hot like a track day. the RA-1s are not good cold. That was part on my problem with them on the Stealth. After coming in off a freeway run on them to Lovelock, they just got colder and harder and slower each run. The next morning they were just awful. Both Kumhos are better cold.

Awesome, now that's good info on the trials stuff. That was a concern of mine. Perhaps the dunlops are a better option, as they are closer to the lower useable tire temperature. The trials are my main concern over track, as I've never really had any problems running street tires at the track.

I will keep digging on the Dunlops.

[Dean]

Good autocross tires = good trials tires. Both have to stick when cold.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by Dean

Good autocross tires = good trials tires. Both have to stick when cold.

The issue is that Matt, and myself, are trying to seperate our Solo I and Solo II tires, and lump the solo I in with open track tires. Good autocross, non Street-Tire legal tires probably won't last long at track days.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

The issue is that Matt, and myself, are trying to seperate our Solo I and Solo II tires, and lump the solo I in with open track tires. Good autocross, non Street-Tire legal tires probably won't last long at track days.

The problem with that is that Solo 1 is more like Solo 2 than it is like Open Track. Like Dean said, you only do one run at a time in Solo, where you do lap after lap with warm-up and cool-down time at a track day. Solo needs tires that are sticky *now*, not later.

The problem is that a really good autocross tire will chunk at 110 mph out at Lovelock when it's 105 degrees out. So, you have to give up a little at autocross to be good at Solo Trials.

Personally, I think a set of the new Azenis Sports will be my Solo1/2 tires, and the more I think about it, the more I think a set of the old Azenis Sports might be the right tire for track days as well... Those tires just seem to be a great blend of sticky vs. longevity vs. price for everything I want to do, I just don't want to put all that heavy track day heat cycling on my solo tires.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by sperry

The problem with that is that Solo 1 is more like Solo 2 than it is like Open Track. Like Dean said, you only do one run at a time in Solo, where you do lap after lap with warm-up and cool-down time at a track day. Solo needs tires that are sticky *now*, not later.

The problem is that a really good autocross tire will chunk at 110 mph out at Lovelock when it's 105 degrees out. So, you have to give up a little at autocross to be good at Solo Trials.

Personally, I think a set of the new Azenis Sports will be my Solo1/2 tires, and the more I think about it, the more I think a set of the old Azenis Sports might be the right tire for track days as well... Those tires just seem to be a great blend of sticky vs. longevity vs. price for everything I want to do, I just don't want to put all that heavy track day heat cycling on my solo tires.

I didn't say we were gonna get what we wanted, just explaining why we're trying to find non-ST legal tires for the stuff we do that doesn't have the 140 TQ-whatever requirement. Azenis for track might not be a bad idea for most of us.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

The issue is that Matt, and myself, are trying to seperate our Solo I and Solo II tires, and lump the solo I in with open track tires. Good autocross, non Street-Tire legal tires probably won't last long at track days.

I understand what you are trying to do, it just isn't that easy is all I'm saying. Solo 1 is a lot more like Solo2 than track days. The Ra-1s need a good 2-5 miles of warm up to really start sticking. Cold, they are probably not much better than the S0-3s, and probably worse than the RE070s and Azenis Sports.

The Kuhmos are better cold R compounds. I don't know where the Dunlops fit. Hoosier makes an A compound for a reason. R tires need heat to perform optimally. Some Rs are better than others at lower temps.

The RE070s, and A-Sports work very well cold. that is why the "T" PAX modifier will be changing from .968, to probably .98 or so... .984 is 1 second on a 60 second course. I'm not even sure you can justify that much any more... Hoosier As vs. A-sports, probably still justify it but not much more.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

I didn't say we were gonna get what we wanted, just explaining why we're trying to find non-ST legal tires for the stuff we do that doesn't have the 140 TQ-whatever requirement. Azenis for track might not be a bad idea for most of us.

I get it, but my point is that unless you plan on 3 sets of tires, it doesn't make sense to group Solo1 and Track together, you'll end up with tires that are either too cold for Solo1 or too hot for Track... you need to group Solo1 and Solo2 together, which means street tires unless you want to run straight SM instead of TSM.

In other words, you're barking up the wrong tree looking for an R-compound tire that can double duty Solo1 and Track. Unless there are some tires out there that I haven't heard of yet that will stick when cold, and not fly apart after a day of 30 minute open track sessions at a hot track. Hell, if they make tires like that, not only would they be expensive as hell, they'd also be on every race car around!

[MattR]

Yeah, that is making good sense....Solo 2 and Trials give you 0 time to warm the tires, so you're basically coming into the useable temp as you cross the finish line.

I think the Dunlops would be a great Solo trial tire, as they are more of a street tire, they seem to be sticky at cold temps...

[Dean]

Originally Posted by BAN SUVS

Azenis for track might not be a bad idea for most of us.

I continue to be amazed how good a tire the A-Sport is. On a hot day on a hot track, maybe you have to take a little care of them, but otherwise they just stick. I have now been to 3 2 day track events (Probably 700+ track miles) on mine, and they are still in great shape. (Plus however many autocrosses we had after nationals...)

I'm thinking of ordering 2 sets for the season. Maybe we need a group buy... Matt, do your trucks go to Phoenix?

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MattR

Yeah, that is making good sense....Solo 2 and Trials give you 0 time to warm the tires, so you're basically coming into the useable temp as you cross the finish line.

I think the Dunlops would be a great Solo trial tire, as they are more of a street tire, they seem to be sticky at cold temps...

How does their cold grip compare to Azenis Sports? How long will they last bombing around at a track?

If they're stickier than the Sports, and will last a full season of Solo1 + Track days, then you might have a tire for what you're trying to do... But if my Sports end up being just about as sticky, then I'm gonna beat you on tires in the end, since mine won't have the big heat cycles from track at the end of the season.

Perhaps you should just look for a good set of track only tires that will last 2 seasons of track days, and stick to street tires for Solo1/2?

Oh, and another argument for me to use street tires all around is that I can use my track tires to get to/from the events, and swap out to the solo tires there... since I don't have "street" tires on that car anymore.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by MattR

Yeah, that is making good sense....Solo 2 and Trials give you 0 time to warm the tires, so you're basically coming into the useable temp as you cross the finish line.

I think the Dunlops would be a great Solo trial tire, as they are more of a street tire, they seem to be sticky at cold temps...

They are almost as cheap as the A-Sports, so somebody should just try a set.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Perhaps you should just look for a good set of track only tires that will last 2 seasons of track days, and stick to street tires for Solo1/2?

Oh, and another argument for me to use street tires all around is that I can use my track tires to get to/from the events, and swap out to the solo tires there... since I don't have "street" tires on that car anymore.

Most R compounds are a shadow of their former selves after > 1 year especially if cycled any number of times.

With the exception of Hoosiers, I would drive and have driven any DOT R compound on the street within reason. I've driven to Hawthorne on Kumhos, Lovelock on RA-1s, etc...

[Kevin M]

Thanks Dean and Scott. I was under the impression before that getting heat into the tires was easier at Solo I, especially with the summer temps at Lovelock. I definitely agree that the Dunlops are worth trying, considering the price.

[MattR]

Originally Posted by Dean

I'm thinking of ordering 2 sets for the season. Maybe we need a group buy... Matt, do your trucks go to Phoenix?

Indeed Dean....

But, I am actually working with a supplier locally, I think I may have found our hookup guys...

How many pairs are we talking here? if I can get a quantity needed tomorrow, I may have some interesting news.


ST-615's (New ones)
or Old Style Sports?

1. Matt R (4) RT215
2. Kevin (4) RT215
3. Mike K (4) RT215
4. Nick (4) ST-115 (225-40/ 18 )


Also, for future reference, I can get tires shaved for $15 ea.