Accessport/Street tuner

[MikeK]

I have been looking at an engine management solution that will allow me to have full power on the street but stay in ESP, so I have been looking at COBB's stuff again. I just got off the phone with them and found out a few things:

- Each copy of street tuner can only make maps for a particular accessport.
- Pro-tuner, the version that Nate would want if he decided to make maps for the accessport is due out in summer (that could mean anything though, cobb always misses their dates)
- When you flash a base map onto the accessport it automatically updates the fruity checksum so there should be no problem passing an OBDII smog test

[Forgotten]

I have given the accesstuner a lot of thought becuase I was pretty interested in learning how to tune. Accessport + Accesstuner is pretty much the same cost as a UTEC. The Accesstuner seems a bit more user friendly, but you can not do as many things with it. I decided to stick with the accessport until I manage Cobb's stage 2.5 ( VF34, Pinks, Fuel Pump) and then sell the accessport and get an Ecutek Tune. The Ecutek tune seems to be better at learning around varying conditions etc. The UTEC and Accesstuner seem to have more problems with conditions.

<a href="http://www.wrxforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=12;t=000038/">
Here</a> is the Accesstuner link for those of you that are intestested.

[Nick Koan]

I'd personally pick AccessPort over UTEC any day. The AccessPort tune is more like a ECUtek tune in regards to safety. Since it uses the stock ECU and reprograms it, all the failsafes are there. UTEC fools the ECU by sending it very well defined but faulty data, so the motor doesn't really know whats up.

StreetTuner on the other hand is a perfect opportunity to really push the limits of your cars tuning, much in the same dangerous ways the UTEC can. It can be a powerful learning tool, but its also quite dangerous IMO.

Of course, I'm really an ECUtek fan, so you'll find me there first. But as an alternative, I much prefer AP over UTEC.

[Kevin M]

Nick's got it down. EcuTek>ST>AP>Utec

[Dean]

Listen not to these ECUTek snobs...

I have both an Access Port, and an ECUTek flashed ECU, and am considering getting the Street Tuner.

If search was working for old threads, I could find the thread where all this was covered ad nausium.

ST offers some interesting options assuming you have all the right guages required to keep you safe, and you make small incremental changes.

ECUTek is allegedly going to offer something similar to ST, but I have not seen a delivery date yet.

Don't let these nay sayers turn you off on AP/ST.

[Nick Koan]

Oh my god dean. I go to great lengths to say how great the AP and Street Tuner are, yet you still feel the need to get defensive. Its a great product, no one is arguing that.

Besides, I bet ECUtek's userflashing solution won't show up 1.5 years after the inital product ship date

[MikeK]

I just ordered the street tuner software, I am going to give it to Nate to play with for a few weeks, then when I have the cash I will get the accessport and get Nate to make me some maps.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Oh my god dean. I go to great lengths to say how great the AP and Street Tuner are, yet you still feel the need to get defensive. Its a great product, no one is arguing that.

Besides, I bet ECUtek's userflashing solution won't show up 1.5 years after the inital product ship date

Nick, I meant no offense... Mostly annoyed by Kevin's one line ">" response... Not very helpfull. I appologize for lumping you in with him.

Forgotten, do your research and make your own decisions. There are owners of both here in Reno, feel free to check them out.

[Forgotten]

I actually have the accessport and couldn't be more satisfied with it. I run the Cali91 Stage 1 map, and as Tyson can attest I have a whole new car. It pulls much better in first and second. Downpipe and Up-pipe getting installed in the next two weeks, so I'm sure I will be impressed with Stage 2 just as much. I'm looking forward to see what Mike gets out of the accesstuner. Threads on Clubwrx.net and Nasioc(I know) didn't seem to get much out of it. It is brand new software though and not many people have had a chance to try their hand at it.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by Forgotten

Threads on Clubwrx.net and Nasioc(I know) didn't seem to get much out of it. It is brand new software though and not many people have had a chance to try their hand at it.

The general consenses is that it doesn't give access to enough things when tuning for big power. Nate himself said pretty much the same thing to me on the phone this afternoon, but for the simple mods I am planning, it should be perfect. Plus I can run full boost on the street and stock boost at autox, and I won't have to reflash back to stock to get smogged.

Later this yeah (maybe) when the pro-tuner comes out, it should handle everything that ecutek handles and more.

FYI I had the cali stage 2 map on my WRX, with the uppipe and cobb's catted turboback. I ditched it for an ecutek tune from Nate. Nate got me about 5 Hp/5 ft-lbs of torque more, but it was never as smooth as the cobb map. Cobb seems to spend a LOT of time on driveablilty, things like open loop to closed loop transitions, partial throttle driving etc. I think you will be happy with it. I have tried both the accessport and ecutek, and I am going back to the accessport for my STi!

[Forgotten]

Wow, I guess I just assumed that a custom tuned Ecutek map would be better than the of the shelf Cobb map. I'm really interested in the slight tweaking that Accesstuner can do, it should make the Cobb maps just about perfect.

[Kevin M]

We may be missing one thread comparing all the options here, but the search functions on about 6 other Subaru forums are working perfectly fine. The bottom line is, if you don't have the time, talent, and inclination to tune your car yourself over many hours, Ecutek is the best solution.

The last thing I'll say on the matter is that if I had a late model WRX or STi, and wanted it as a dual use car, for track/autocross and street driving, I'd be taking it to Nate for an EcuTek. My ego doesn't require that I get credit for making the car faster, only that it is.

[tysonK]

MikeK

You might live to regret/enjoy this thread.

And Yeah Pete, although I have rode in a stage 2 COBB car I just liked feeling your car around the auto-x course which I could compare to my weaksauce low-torque-low-boost-mobile.

[Evo Mike]

ah! well from what i have seen.. Ecutek = the best thing for wrx's right now...

i mean James's 278whp VF34 wrx on Gruppe-s's dyno = amazing

BAN SUV's is right in a sense.. tuning the other EMS's takes alot of time and patience. It actually takes a rediculous amount of time (if you plan to learn) and is pretty fustrating. dont forget you'll also need to drop another 350$ on a wideband 02 sensor.. also you run the risk of getting caught doing 2nd, 3rd, and 4th gear pulls on the street.. haha

[sperry]

While we're all dropping our $0.02 around here (and while the search indexes are rebuilding) I'll add my opinion:

The bottom line with all these products is that you're only going to get out of it what you put into it. If you think you can tune better than someone w/ 100's of hours and 1000's of tunes and their own AWD dyno, then A) have at it, and B) start your own business. An experienced tuner is the number 1 thing that will give you a good tune... not the hardware or software. I bet Nate can tune a UniChip better than I could tune a StreetTuner.

In the case of MikeK's comparison of +5hp/+5tq on the EcuTek over the smoothness of the AP... My guess is that since the AP map was made in Utah, it's probably a bit better matched to the altitude here in Reno, hense the smoothness. I bet if you told Nate you weren't happy w/ the smoothness of his tune, he probably would have fixed it, *and* kept your hp/tq gains. The man is a perfectionist when it comes to tuning. You saw how many times he kept tossing MattR's and Nick's STis on the dyno trying to make their maps perfect. I have a really hard time believing that someone w/o real tuning experience is going to come even close to that sort of result tuning the car on the street.

But that's just my $0.02... directed not necessarily at Forgotton, but at all the people (*cough* Dean *cough*) that are implying that achieving a good tune on a modern ECU is akin to hooking up the old timing light and twisting the distributor.

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by sperry

In the case of MikeK's comparison of +5hp/+5tq on the EcuTek over the smoothness of the AP... My guess is that since the AP map was made in Utah, it's probably a bit better matched to the altitude here in Reno, hense the smoothness. I bet if you told Nate you weren't happy w/ the smoothness of his tune, he probably would have fixed it, *and* kept your hp/tq gains. The man is a perfectionist when it comes to tuning. You saw how many times he kept tossing MattR's and Nick's STis on the dyno trying to make their maps perfect. I have a really hard time believing that someone w/o real tuning experience is going to come even close to that sort of result tuning the car on the street.

Agreed, which is why Nate is going to be making all my maps It is just unfortunate that cobb's pro-tuner is still vapourware, otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with street tuner

[Nick Koan]

Yeah, I'm actually curious what Nate will be able to do with ProTuner and StreetTuner. We may find he likes the software much better.

Personally, I think I'm going to hold of on the whole reflash thing for a bit longer. I'm curious what kind of features the ECUtek user flashing solution will have so we can compare side by side.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Programming your engine yourself is very time-consuming and difficult, but it is certainly possible if you're willing to learn. I've taken my Mustang from pinging like crazy on 91 octane to running smoothly on 87 octane in the space of a couple of months, using a tuning device with no documentation whatsoever.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

Programming your engine yourself is very time-consuming and difficult, but it is certainly possible if you're willing to learn. I've taken my Mustang from pinging like crazy on 91 octane to running smoothly on 87 octane in the space of a couple of months, using a tuning device with no documentation whatsoever.

Did you properly match your boost, timing, fuel and load maps? What about open-loop to close-loop transitioning? Cold start? A/C? Idle? Learning correction? Timing advance multiplier? How are your partial-throttle full-boost EGT's, or did you get the waste-gate duty cycle properly matched? How about the duty cycle for larger injectors? Where'd you install the wide-band O2? How about the AVCS variable timing? Did you make sure to set the parameters for the stock EGT sensors to prevent inefficient cat CELs? Will the car pass an OBD-II smog check, is the ECU check-sum corrected? And did you do it all right the second time for the secondary map?

...not to knock the work you've done, but tuning a 5.0L EFI Mustang motor is slightly less complicated than tuning a Turbo Subaru motor. In fact... I question why I'm bothering w/ this WRX thing anyway... a Chevy 350 in a Porsche 914 would be faster, and much easier and cheaper to work on.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

...not to knock the work you've done, but tuning a 5.0L EFI Mustang motor is slightly less complicated than tuning a Turbo Subaru motor.

I don't doubt it, but all it takes is time and patience.

Originally Posted by sperry

In fact... I question why I'm bothering w/ this WRX thing anyway... a Chevy 350 in a Porsche 914 would be faster, and much easier and cheaper to work on.

You're not the only one... I'm looking around at how much it costs to actually race a Mustang and it starts getting ridiculous when you add everything up, because they eat through consumables like it's going out of style. Something like a Spec Miata or Legends is way simpler and cheaper... I don't know what I'll eventually end up doing with my car.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I don't doubt it, but all it takes is time and patience.

You're not the only one... I'm looking around at how much it costs to actually race a Mustang and it starts getting ridiculous when you add everything up, because they eat through consumables like it's going out of style. Something like a Spec Miata or Legends is way simpler and cheaper... I don't know what I'll eventually end up doing with my car.

I would still argue that in the case of a modern turbo motor, simple time and patience isn't enough to get a good safe tune. In addition, you will need specialized tools like a wide-band O2 sensor, Exhaust Gas Pyrometer, and Boost Gauge. Plus a way to test settings in a controlled environment (i.e. a dyno, I don't think anyone really has an indoor test track around here). Also, a good background in engine physics, and an understanding of forced induction.

Now, I will agree that someone with some of the above can can probably eek out a bit more from their car if they're just tweaking an existing tune, I don't think anyone can just up and tune a car w/o some sort of experience, either an appreticeship type deal, or the experience that comes w/ blowing a few motors.

Regarding door to door racing... I think Spec Miata's are probably the best bet. Because the series is so popular, it's not too hard to pick up someone's old car and campaign it. Chances are you won't be competative, but you will gain an assload of door to door experience. Then you pass it down to the next n00b, and built yourself a competative car. Once you learn how to win, then trade up to a bigger series, like Speed TC.

[cody]

I was thinking of going AccessPORT stage 2, but It seems like this thread echoes similar opinions to what I've been reading on wrxfanatics.com and Nabisco. Nothing beats a really good tune with a Ecutek (well except a standalone perhaps, but that's definately an overkill for me). I may still go with Cobb, but I wanted to hear from locals. I'm new to Reno and this elevation and weather is extreme. Seems like if the Ecutek reacts to environmental variable changes better, that's the way to go in Reno. Whatayallthink?

[Nick Koan]

Honestly, either solution will work great. They both respond to weather and atmospheric changes safely and quickly.

The only thing I personally don't recomend is standalones or piggybacks if you don't know what you are doing.

[Dean]

I agree with Nick... They are both good products...

I am so sick of the *cough* ECUTek preaching *cough*... And statements that you can't possibly tune a Subaru yourself without detonating your engine.

Each product has its own pros and cons.

AccessPort maps and the foundation maps for ST are created by a company with more hours tuning Subarus than probably anyone in the USA.

To say that tuner X with ECUTek software can do better/safer/with 1/2 the calories is quite presumptious.

I would also mention that the Cobb maps are done at a much similar altitude to ours.

I own both.

My ECUTek has a very specific purpose, at which it excells. If you want a single map, or two for specific purposes, it is a good option, but be prepared to drive to Sac. every time you make a Mod, or want something changed, and the corresponding cost of the dyno time.

With the AP, I can change between many maps with different purposes. With ST I hope to be able to make careful and small tweaks to those well tested base maps to fit my needs. And in the process, hope to learn something.

They are Apples and Oranges. Make your own choices based on your needs/wants.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

I am so sick of the *cough* ECUTek preaching *cough*... And statements that you can't possibly tune a Subaru yourself without detonating your engine.

I never said ECUTek is better than Cobb's offerings. I said a dumbass on the street has a hopeless chance of tuning a car to the level that an experienced professional with the right tools can. Hell, when you get down to it, the AP and the ECUTek are exactly the same thing: the stock ECU.

The reason I tend to bag on the Street Tuner is because it's being sold as some magical tool that will somehow allow Joe Everybody to tune there car as long as they've got a place to do 4th gear pulls. Even the name, "Street Tuner" is disgusting in its implications. You can argue all you want that you can tweak your car with said product, but the bottom line is that it's not being sold as a tweaking tool, it's being sold as a tuning tool.... say it with me... street.... tuner. Not "closed course tweaker".

So, if and when you can go out and tune your car from the ground up, on the street, in a repeatable, safe, and legal manner with the Street Tuner software, then I'll stop recommending the ECUTek over the Street Tuner. I'm not exactly holding my breath.

So like you said, make your own decision based on your needs and wants, but don't go into it thinking that all it's gonna take is a little persistance and you can tune your car yourself. If you don't know what you're getting yourself into, you will damage your car, and if you do know what you're getting yourself into, you're probably already bringing your car to a professional.

Ugh... I'm starting to feel like Kevin in these debates!