Choices on Springs...

[dayofpain]

OK, i talked with scott at great length about this subject.

I still cant make up my mind, however i would like to see what you all think about my pickle.

OK lest get started.

GOAL: To kill the bumpy bump of the stock springs. To have even finger gap. I am only looking for a mild performance increase. You guys that know me, should know that if i wanted to get nuts on performance i would just sack up and buy ohlins coilovers.
I also do NOT want to change the struts out.

Let it begin....

The springs on the 05 sti are in fact a different part number than the 04. The struts are also a different part number. Which leads me to believe that they did in fact change the suspension. Hence the better reviews on the 05.

Sadly there are only 2 manufacturers that offer a specific 05 version of springs. Tein and Tanabe.

first off i refuse to pay the rediculous price for pinks or prodrives. so before we continue count those out. i will use them for comparison alot though cause they are the standard.

the facts.

Stock = 224/194 Linear

Pinks = 257/217 = drop of 20mm all around. Linear

the 05 revisioned springs...

Tein H Tech = 229/196 Progressive 1.8/1.3
Tein S Tech = 252/219 Progressive 2.0/1.2
Tanabe GF210 = 241/224 Progressive (Best looking drop) 1.5/.9

Other Options...

Espelir ASD = 252/196 Linear 35mm/20mm
Espelir GT = 280/230 Linear 30mm/20mm
Perrin = rates?? 1.9/1.1 Progressive.

[sperry]

Here's the low-down on my converstation w/ Phil....

We both think that the '05 STi springs and struts are more in line w/ the Spec-C bits from Japan. Not quite as stiff as the track Spec-C setup, but certainly better than the '04 US STi parts.

Also, we the US '05 parts may be slightly different because the JDM STi is significantly lighter than the US one.

With all that in mind, I think Phil should probably stick to the springs that have been specifically refined for the '05 STi. Springs made for the '04 won't match the '05's stiffer valving, and springs for JDM STi's won't take into account the US car's weight.

Phil told me he really likes the handling of linear springs, but doesn't like the hop that the stock setup has. From my experience w/ my over-valved JIC's, I think hop can sometimes be caused not only by over-sprung suspension, but also by under-sprung suspension. Basically, the stiff valveing on the struts precludes the springs from being able to do their job over the small bumps, which causes the tire suspension to hop on an otherwise smooth road, like driving down the freeway.

So... with all that in mind, I think the Tanabe GF210 springs are probably the way to go. They're just a little stiffer than stock, so they'll probably match up to the struts well (we know that the STi pinks seem to be a great match to the stock STi struts). They look best by having an evening effect on the wheel-gap w/o "slamming" the car.

The only draw-back is the progressive rate... if the car is actually over-valved, then this may exaserbate the slow bump hopping issue. If the car's actually over-sprung, then these will match up very well for street driving. Either way, we know they were specifically designed for the US '05 STi, and they're not bank-breaking in cost, so I'd go for it!

[Dean]

OK, if they fit, there are or will be shortly, a ton of springs from 04 pinks to Tyson's I can't remember what, to stock WRXs lying around the reno area.

If they fit, it costs nothing but sweat to test them.

Linear rates are for Race Cars, and even then, I believe some touring type cars use progressive, or double progressives. My DMS 50s came with double progressives for the street/gravel, and even the race springs I'm on now are single progresive.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

OK, if they fit, there are or will be shortly, a ton of springs from 04 pinks to Tyson's I can't remember what, to stock WRXs lying around the reno area.

If they fit, it costs nothing but sweat to test them.

Why bother testing '04 springs when we know that the '05's got different struts? Getting springs that are specifically designed for the '05 is < $200... my time screwing around with the '04 stuff is worth more than the savings, plus the stock '05 springs are already better than anything available for the '04 IMO.

[dayofpain]

yeah i can get either tein h or s and tanabe gf's for under 200 shipped.

Also the "pinks" as everyone refers too are also a lucky coincidence that they do well on the 04 sti's. the jdm 04 sti that comes with those springs and in turn the car they designed for, are infact 300lbs lighter than our usdm sti. that alone means they are still mismatched to our cars.

i just like the assurance that a product was designed for my car. rather than something that kinda works, or is super nice and is lucky that it works.


ALSO something to note. I spoke with the guys from racecomp engineering. He says the prodrive springs are 04-05 compatable. HOWEVER on the 04's the pinks are clearly better than the prodrives. On the other side though, he says the prodrives on the 05 are rediculous. He said also that the difference in 04 with pinks and 05 with prodrives, the 05 clearly handles better. Not by a small margin either. Its really too bad i cant get some rates on the prodrives cause then i would really have a good idea on what works well and what doesnt.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by sperry

Why bother testing '04 springs when we know that the '05's got different struts? Getting springs that are specifically designed for the '05 is < $200... my time screwing around with the '04 stuff is worth more than the savings, plus the stock '05 springs are already better than anything available for the '04 IMO.

Oh please.. They are springs, not works of art... If he doesn't want to mess around, yeah, he can buy something sight unseen, and ass untested... Go for it.

Struts <> springs. The 04 springs, again, if they fit. may be wonderfull with the 05 damping and perfectly meet his needs... Tyson's WRX lowering springs may be perfect. Or they may all suck, and all we get is an afternoon in the sun, and free pizza for helping him swap them all in and out...

Just my $.02...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Oh please.. They are springs, not works of art... If he doesn't want to mess around, yeah, he can buy something sight unseen, and ass untested... Go for it.

Struts <> springs. The 04 springs, again, if they fit. may be wonderfull with the 05 damping and perfectly meet his needs... Tyson's WRX lowering springs may be perfect. Or they may all suck, and all we get is an afternoon in the sun, and free pizza for helping him swap them all in and out...

Just my $.02...

There are a lot of companies saying "the '04 springs are fine on the '05 because nothing's changed". I wouldn't buy springs from a company that doesn't even know that the '05 comes w/ a revised strut. How well refined can their product be if they don't even know the car it goes on.

Likewise, why bother w/ "trying" '04 springs that were designed for the '04 on the '05 that certainly has different struts? The '05 already has superb springs... what are the chances that the '04 springs are somehow better? Why should I (or any consumer) waste my time doing the swap to test 'em... isn't that why I pay a company $200 for $20 in spring metal? Aren't I paying for their R&D? For my money, I'd buy something that's been specifically tested for my application.

So that leaves two choices: the S-Techs, which are too low, and have bad reviews; or the Tanabes which seem to be great except for the progressive rate that is something Phil doesn't like as a matter of personal preference.

Given the choices, I'd go w/ the Tanabes... or wait for someone else to come out w/ another choice specific to the '05.

[dayofpain]

BINGO!

Prodrive springs are progressive in design.
Pinks are linear.

deduction = the valving on the 04 is better suited to a linear design, whereas the valving on the 05 is progressive in nature. or at least performs better with a spring of that design.

this also explains why people with 04's love espelir springs and people with 05's do not. espelirs are of course linear in design.

this all but makes my decision.

DOWN TO THIS:

Tein S-techs
Tein H-techs
Tanabe GF210

[sperry]

I think the Tanabe's are the way to go. The Tein's lower the car too much IMO. You want to keep the front control arms at or above level at normal ride height, and -2in in the front is pushing it.

[Dean]

Alternative 1. Hacksaw.
Alternative 2. Torch
Alternative 3. Listen to the owner of a professionaly engineered sytem from JIC...

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

A Subaru, Tein, Tenabe, engineer or marketing department's ass is no more caligrated that yours or mine. Since the struts are non-adjustable, you get what you get from each of the vendors, and whetehr you like it is determined only by your ass, no one elses.

My suggestion is to find a car that already has brand/model X springs and get a ride.

[dayofpain]

Originally Posted by Dean

Alternative 1. Hacksaw.
Alternative 2. Torch
Alternative 3. Listen to the owner of a professionaly engineered sytem from JIC...

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

A Subaru, Tein, Tenabe, engineer or marketing department's ass is no more caligrated that yours or mine. Since the struts are non-adjustable, you get what you get from each of the vendors, and whetehr you like it is determined only by your ass, no one elses.

My suggestion is to find a car that already has brand/model X springs and get a ride.

word, i totally understand that, i doubt anyone has those springs yet though, the first batch was released last week

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Alternative 1. Hacksaw.
Alternative 2. Torch
Alternative 3. Listen to the owner of a professionaly engineered sytem from JIC...

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

A Subaru, Tein, Tenabe, engineer or marketing department's ass is no more caligrated that yours or mine. Since the struts are non-adjustable, you get what you get from each of the vendors, and whetehr you like it is determined only by your ass, no one elses.

My suggestion is to find a car that already has brand/model X springs and get a ride.

The JIC's suck specifically *because* of the lack of testing. They took the JDM coilovers that are supposed to be terrific, and decided "gee, people in the US don't like really stiff rides, let's just sell 'em w/ softer springs." There was no R&D, which is why they suck so much. Sounds very similar to: "well the '05 STi looks the same as the '04... lets just say our existing springs are just fine and sell 'em for the '05 as well."

I would hope that companies like Subaru, Tein and Tanabe are using more than an engineer's ass to test their springs. Things like a shock dyno and timed test laps come to mind. If the R&D involved is just throwing 'em on a car and driving around the block, then $200 for springs is about $180 too much.

And as soon as someone has an '05 w/ springs on it, I'm sure Phil would love to get a ride. Problem is, he's the 1st one in our group to look at springs on an '05. Everyone else w/ an '05 has stayed stock or gone to coilovers.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by Dean

A Subaru, Tein, Tenabe, engineer or marketing department's ass is no more caligrated that yours or mine.

I beg to differ.

That said, ride quality is extremely subjective. One person's awesome, sporty ride is another's tooth-chipping, mechanical bull-like POS.

[Dean]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

I beg to differ.

That said, ride quality is extremely subjective. One person's awesome, sporty ride is another's tooth-chipping, mechanical bull-like POS.

Didn't I say that? Well, sort of... Leave it to Austin to say what I meant without pissing off Scott.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I would hope that companies like Subaru, Tein and Tanabe are using more than an engineer's ass to test their springs. Things like a shock dyno and timed test laps come to mind. If the R&D involved is just throwing 'em on a car and driving around the block, then $200 for springs is about $180 too much.

You'd be surprised...

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

You'd be surprised...

I'd certainly be surprised if Subaru sold a car w/o testing the suspension on it first.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I'd certainly be surprised if Subaru sold a car w/o testing the suspension on it first.

Yes, which after you've done some initial calculations, always involves simply driving the car around a lot and seeing how it feels. Granted at the OEM level there is test equipment & instrumentation recording data whilst the driving around is taking place, but there is driving around nonetheless. At less funded levels, i.e. the entire aftermarket, we don't always have access to nice equipment like the OEM's have...

[dayofpain]

gf210's with stock struts and 18's.

[sperry]

Woah... is that a purple car, or just the lighting?

[Kevin M]

I think it's CGM with cool lighting. Looks pretty pimp.

[dayofpain]

the above is bmw grey.

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by dayofpain

the above is bmw grey.

Ohhhhhh. him. Nevermind.

[JC]

Whiteline has '05 specific springs as well.

[bruspeed]

Now, I know this may or may not help, but I have a set of version 8 takeoffs, with tanabe gf210 springs, I really like it, after driving it around for a week, then riding with Brian to the meet yesterday, I realized how overdamped the stock sti bits are. My $.02? go with the gf210's. I like the progressive wind, My car is at the most a two finger gap on the wheel wells, and it seems to be a very good match. just thought I'd say something.

[dknv]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

That said, ride quality is extremely subjective. One person's awesome, sporty ride is another's tooth-chipping, mechanical bull-like POS.

And, don't forgot one of the most important things, that your girlfriend enjoys the ride too.
(I couldn't help myself, you guys get soooo caught up in your opinions sometimes.)

If it were me I would be talking to a number of people who have had real-world experience with a variety of products, not just the sales/tech at xxx company. And I'm surprised none of the tuner mags have taken this topic on, yet.