Remapping now that S-Squared is gone?

[cody]

Originally Posted by sybir

Shop is closed, Nate is no longer tuning. He's teaching custom fab at Wyotech these days.

Subaru Specialists is still doing repair stuff, just not performance work.

Another local guy bought the dyno and software and will be opening a Subaru shop in Roseville shortly.

Wow, what about his former customers that need their map tweaked for a new mod?

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

Wow, what about his former customers that need their map tweaked for a new mod?

Any other tuner can write a new map for either ECUtek or AP, thats not really an issue. Sure, it'll be a new map 'from scratch' but most tuners have a good idea about whats going on, and can usually use one of their base maps to start from and get a new map in very little time.

[cody]

Well, I'll give you an example (without naming names so we can try to avoid the OT BS):

My tuner spent over 4 hours fine tuning my car at sea level and I have a very generic setup. Everything was fine at sea level (although boost was set a tad too high in retrospect). But at this elevation I'd see some spiking. My tuner was in town and offered to fine tune for this elevation and drop my peak boost by a psi or two. The result was he was able to advance timing and my car now feels exactly the same to the butt dyno, but the boost is lower and more stable.

Here's my only point. It only took him an hour of screwing around up here to fine tune his previous map...if he went out of business, I'd be paying for an entire new tune. Some of Nate's former customers will be spending more money get tuned for new mods unless he unlocks the map for another tuner. At least I think that's how it works for Ecutek and Protune.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Well, I'll give you an example (without naming names so we can try to avoid the OT BS):

My tuner spent over 4 hours fine tuning my car at sea level and I have a very generic setup. Everything was fine at sea level (although boost was set a tad too high in retrospect). But at this elevation I'd see some spiking. My tuner was in town and offered to fine tune for this elevation and drop my peak boost by a psi or two. The result was he was able to advance timing and my car now feels exactly the same to the butt dyno, but the boost is lower and more stable.

Here's my only point. It only took him an hour of screwing around up here to fine tune his previous map...if he went out of business, I'd be paying for an entire new tune. Some of Nate's former customers will be spending more money get tuned for new mods unless he unlocks the map for another tuner. At least I think that's how it works for Ecutek and Protune.

Your tuner doesn't have a dyno so it takes him 4 times as long as it should to get a decent tune on a mildly modded car.

[Nick Koan]

Normal tuner shouldn't take more then one hour to do a tune that should work at any elevation (unless he's tuning standalone). If a tuner requires more time then that, maybe that just speaks to his experience level.

So, one hour for a completley new map or one hour for a revised map. Same price eitehr way.

[cody]

I can understand that opinion, but the car felt awesome the moment he dropped his generic map to the ECU. The rest of the time he spent fine tuning it.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

I can understand that opinion, but the car felt awesome the moment he dropped his generic map to the ECU. The rest of the time he spent fine tuning it.

I hope you didn't pay him hourly... 'cause all that "fine tuning" is worthless the next day you drive the car, since the temperature is different. Or a month later, since the VE of the motor has changed a little due to wear. There's a reason the ECU has learning algorithms... it self fine-tunes.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

I can understand that opinion, but the car felt awesome the moment he dropped his generic map to the ECU. The rest of the time he spent fine tuning it.

Okay, lets drop Ed here, as it isn't important to the discussion, IMO, and just gets people butt hurt.

A professional tuner with a dyno should be able to make a map at the same price a re-tune from S2 would have cost. Their customers, yes, need to find a new shop, but its not exactly like they are left in the cold when it comes to re-tunes. When taken to a reputable tuner, it shouldn't take any more time or money then a re-tune at S2 would have.

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

Your tuner doesn't have a dyno so it takes him 4 times as long as it should to get a decent tune on a mildly modded car.

Let's not go there. Please try to see my point. You are welcome to disagree with that, but I'm not here to discuss road tuning vs dyno tuning.

[cody]

Originally Posted by nKoan

Okay, lets drop Ed here, as it isn't important to the discussion, IMO, and just gets people butt hurt.

Agreed.

A professional tuner with a dyno should be able to make a map at the same price a re-tune from S2 would have cost. Their customers, yes, need to find a new shop, but its not exactly like they are left in the cold when it comes to re-tunes. When taken to a reputable tuner, it shouldn't take any more time or money then a re-tune at S2 would have.

If you say so...

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

I hope you didn't pay him hourly... 'cause all that "fine tuning" is worthless the next day you drive the car, since the temperature is different. Or a month later, since the VE of the motor has changed a little due to wear. There's a reason the ECU has learning algorithms... it self fine-tunes.

That's a very simplified descripiton. You and I both know the ECU is given targets to hit for AFR's, timing, and boost. Fine tuning those targets is the difference between a tune that is constantly causing knock or a lean condition, and one that the engine responds magicly too...regardless of the environmental conditions.

Just let go of the hate.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

If you say so...

Trust me. Unless the car has wierd mods, a tuner will have most likely seen the setup before. And it doesn't take long to work the quirks of a car out. Its very rare that a car with simple bolt-ons takes more then one hour to tune (a completely fresh tune), and a re-tune would be a bit shorter but most shops only charge in full hour increments.

So, one hour of fresh tune costs the same as one hour of retune.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Let's not go there. Please try to see my point. You are welcome to disagree with that, but I'm not here to discuss road tuning vs dyno tuning.

I didn't think I was missing your point. You said that is seems wrong for someone to have to pay for a full retune when they're just getting their car tweaked for a new mod. You cited that it took 4 hours for you to get your initial tune, and only an hour for a tweak.

I'm telling you that 4 hours is too long for a single map on a car with your mods. It's not like you're were getting multiple fuel or boost maps, it's not like your car has any bits on it that most tuners haven't tuned for a 100 times. 5 hours to get it right is about 4 hours too long. Not having the convience of a dyno is part of the additional time, but I'm gonna guess the biggest delay was simply a lack of experience, which isn't a knock on Ed as everyone has to start at some point, just as long as he's not charging by the hour for you to let him learn on your car.

Anyway, a tune on a mildly modified car takes about an hour. A tweak later on also takes about an hour, since the tasks are exatcly the same. Remember, most tuners already have base maps made for 99% of the common mods out there, so the only difference between a tweak and a full tune is whether they can start with the map on the car, or the map on their PC.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

That's a very simplified descripiton. You and I both know the ECU is given targets to hit for AFR's, timing, and boost. Fine tuning those targets is the difference between a tune that is constantly causing knock or a lean condition, and one that the engine responds magicly too...regardless of the environmental conditions.

Just let go of the hate.

You missed my point. Ed wasn't "fine tuning" the car... he was "tuning" the car. You were implying that Ed spent a ton of extra time on the details. I'm telling you the details are handled by the ECU itself, if they weren't we couldn't push the cars to the levels they're pushed, as the margin of safety would be too slim as operating conditions change.

Spending an ass-load of time on a map getting it "just right" is a waste of time, because the conditions the motor's being tuned under won't ever exist in exactly the same manner ever again. Temperatures change, parts wear, humidity is different, and on and on. The ECU can already adapt to those changes. The goal of the tuner is to make a map that's good enough to allow the ECU to work well in all conditions. If you really go after the details, at some point you're actually going to be fighting the learning features of the ECU.

[cody]

Ed had a tune premade for my specific setup and spent 4 hours fine tuning it. I did not pay him by the hour, but took advantage of the package deal of getting the AP and tune for one set price (which is supposed to include only 2 hours, but Ed is a perfectionist). He didn't even charge me for the re-tune up here. It was a good experience for him to see how a good tune at sea level may not be a good tune at 4,500 feet.

I understand that most places would have spent only an hour, but that's exactly why I went to Ed after talking to both of them.

Okay, I'm sorry I can't control myself from responding and I hope nobody gets butt hurt. (that's not a jab at anyone).

It sounds like my situation is not the norm so I'll just be quiet now.

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

I understand that most places would have spent only an hour, but that's exactly why I went to Ed after talking to both of them.

I think the point we're trying to convey is that just cause it took longer doesn't mean its necessiarly any better. Don't fool yourself into thinking a 4 hour tune is inheriently better then a 1 hour job. It might be better (no proof either way in your case) but its not definitive to say that 4 hours to tune means your map is better tuned.

[cody]

Originally Posted by sperry

You missed my point. Ed wasn't "fine tuning" the car... he was "tuning" the car. You were implying that Ed spent a ton of extra time on the details. I'm telling you the details are handled by the ECU itself, if they weren't we couldn't push the cars to the levels they're pushed, as the margin of safety would be too slim as operating conditions change.

Spending an ass-load of time on a map getting it "just right" is a waste of time, because the conditions the motor's being tuned under won't ever exist in exactly the same manner ever again. Temperatures change, parts wear, humidity is different, and on and on. The ECU can already adapt to those changes. The goal of the tuner is to make a map that's good enough to allow the ECU to work well in all conditions. If you really go after the details, at some point you're actually going to be fighting the learning features of the ECU.

Maybe you're right. I'm not a tuner, so I don't know. In fact nobody can possibley say with any certainty whether my car would be happier if I had gone to a dyno-tuner that would have spent 1/4 the time.

Personally I'm just glad Ed stood behind his work enough to come up here and make it right. The car seems very happy to me. The EGT's and boost are nice and low but it still feels like a rocket. I'm happy.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by cody

Ed had a tune premade for my specific setup and spent 4 hours fine tuning it. I did not pay him by the hour, but took advantage of the package deal of getting the AP and tune for one set price (which is supposed to include only 2 hours, but Ed is a perfectionist). He didn't even charge me for the re-tune up here. It was a good experience for him to see how a good tune at sea level may not be a good tune at 4,500 feet.

I understand that most places would have spent only an hour, but that's exactly why I went to Ed after talking to both of them.

Okay, I'm sorry I can't control myself from responding and I hope nobody gets butt hurt. (that's not a jab at anyone).

It sounds like my situation is not the norm so I'll just be quiet now.

I'm not knocking Ed. Really I'm not. I've got no problem with the guy, or his work, he's certainly tuned some fast cars. And I'm attempting to leave my concerns about his business practices out of this thread.

My point is that Ed is new to the game. You shouldn't kid yourself into thinking he's somehow doing something super-special that the other more experienced tuners aren't also doing. The "extra" time he's spending is more than likely because he's not as experienced as someone that's tuned 1000 cars. He's doing you right though by not charging extra for the time... if you've got the time to let him work on the car, you're certainly going to get a better tune, and Ed's going to get the experience he needs to become more efficient.

My point is, the amount of time spent on a tune isn't directly proportional to the quality of the tune. The going rate for a bolt-on's map is about an hour, which is why it shouldn't matter if S-Squared did your initial tune, since it'll cost the same at just about any EcuTek tuner to get the map tweaked.

[cody]

Yeah! We all agree!

Quick, lock the thread!

[Nick Koan]

Originally Posted by cody

Yeah! We all agree!

Quick, lock the thread!

[Dean]

I feel compeled to respond as this digresses into Ed/Street tuning bashing...

Scott, you have previously claimed or even bragged that your car in it's last incarnation spent an entire day on the dyno at Easy Street. To then turn around and claim that "I'm telling you that 4 hours is too long for a single map on a car with your mods" and is "is a waste of time" is somewhat hypocritical IMHO...

Getting the base maps as accurate as possible is a significant advantage over relying on the ECU to learn how to adjust. You say the conditions will never be the same, but many will. The relatioship between the MAS, O2 sensors, injectors, and other sensors is not likely to significantly change. Yes, the specifc environment might, but much of what you are tuning for is matching all these items for a given set of conditions. RPM, Boost, etc. Relying on knock, and other sensors and ECU learning to tune your car is crap.

I am not claiming to be an expert, but from just my first few months of just collecting data and learning about Street tuner, I know how many values there are to tune, and that most of what you are doing is making the different components inputs/outputs jive with each other. Barometric, and temperature tables are barely involved.

We also have imperical evidence to back this up... Mikes car on a Q&D Nate tune ran like crap. More time and energy at Gruppe-S, and it ran like a charm... Hmmmm.

Lets just all get along... How about a round of I'd like to teach the world to sing...

On a related note..

In my opinion, it would have been extremely professional if Nate had provided his past customers with electronic, or paper coppies of their Maps prior to moving on, but alas, that is not the case. I wonder what happened to his copy of the ECUTek software and ProTuner... Aaron... Is that PC still around that we could get our maps?

[cody]

Having those maps wouldn't do you any good in their current form. They're digitally "signed". The question is, can they be "unlocked" or "ported" to another tuner.

[sybir]

Originally Posted by Dean

We also have imperical evidence to back this up... Mikes car on a Q&D Nate tune ran like crap. More time and energy at Gruppe-S, and it ran like a charm... Hmmmm.

Lets just all get along... How about a round of I'd like to teach the world to sing...

On a related note..

In my opinion, it would have been extremely professional if Nate had provided his past customers with electronic, or paper coppies of their Maps prior to moving on, but alas, that is not the case. I wonder what happened to his copy of the ECUTek software and ProTuner... Aaron... Is that PC still around that we could get our maps?

Ummm, Mike's old car was tuned by us, his new car was tuned by Gruppe-S. After tuning Mike's WRX, Nate found a way to smooth the OL/CL transitions, but Mike was onto his 05 at that point, wanted to go with AP, and Moike took care of him at a time when we couldn't. QED.

Regarding your second request, and your statement of professionalism, you're speculating on a lot that I'm not going to respond to on a public forum, as I'm not going to get into details on why the old shop went away. Nate is no longer tuning, but the work he's done over the years is his intellectual property. Maps cannot be read by another Ecutek license, so there is no reason for or method to provide those maps to past customers. The "computer" is not available for that information, and likely won't be, and while we have the Ecutek software, we prefer the Cobb solution as it offers much easier and quicker tuning, so retunes on Ecutek cars will be handled in a method to be determined once the new shop is up and rolling.

Until the new shop is open for business, I can't really comment anymore, but I felt the need to address some of the questions asked in this thread. It is not Paul's intetion to leave past customers out in the cold by any means, but he is starting a new business that is unique and stands apart from any previous efforts, and his purchase of the hardware and software does not imply a continuation of the previous shop.

Regarding what this thread originally started with; the old shop closed for multiple reasons, many of us had close personal and professional ties to it, and believe me, I know it sucks. Paul will try to fill that void as much as possible, but please do not expect him to answer for anything previous, as it's not his responsibility.

Shops close, people leave and move on, and we work together to keep everyone supported. Facts of life

[MikeK]

Aaron are you going to be involved in the new shop?

[sybir]

Yup. I'll help out Paul as much as I can