Alignment and new sway bar - Subaru Enthusiasts Car Club of the Sierras

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 08:55 AM

Well I am getting a new FSB installed and an alignment this afternoon. Looking for feedback on the alignment.

Looking for street tire survival and still fun at the track.

I am planning on going with 0 toe all around, -1.6 front camber and -1.2 camber.

Does this sound reasonable, not agressive enough or?

The 255/40 RT 615's fit fine, but slightly rub at full lock on the inside front fender liner going over steep slope transitions. I have a feeling that the front FSB will cure this - hopefully.

MikeK · 2006-05-31, 09:02 AM

As long as you have 0 toe wear will not be a problem. I am running more negative camber than that, especially at the rear, and I have noticed any unusual wear on the inside edge.

sperry · 2006-05-31, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleurx

The 255/40 RT 615's fit fine, but slightly rub at full lock on the inside front fender liner going over steep slope transitions. I have a feeling that the front FSB will cure this - hopefully.

A softer rear bar and stiffer springs will also fix that, as well as handle better overall IMO.

<-- has gone from the "swaybars are good" to the "swaybars are bandaids for improperly setup struts" camp.

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeK

As long as you have 0 toe wear will not be a problem. I am running more negative camber than that, especially at the rear, and I have noticed any unusual wear on the inside edge.

What are you running front and rear?

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

A softer rear bar and stiffer springs will also fix that, as well as handle better overall IMO.

<-- has gone from the "swaybars are good" to the "swaybars are bandaids for improperly setup struts" camp.

Great Scott! Last week you were on the bigger sway bar up front camp.

sperry · 2006-05-31, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleurx

What are you running front and rear?

Springs: 550lb/in front, 550lb/in rear
Sways: 22mm front, 13mm rear

I'm currently over sprung... I really should drop back to a 450 spring in the front... luckily I've already got a set of springs to do that, it's just a matter of doing it.

The only caveat to the swaybar thing is that WRX/STI's really seem to like a very stiff front bar, simply because it helps a lot to prevent positive camber gain on otherwise soft stock springs... so you pick up better handling w/o giving up ride quality. But IMO you're still better off limiting camber gain simply by running stiffer springs and properly setup dampers... but if you're going to keep the car streetable, you need to keep the springs on the soft side.

NevadaSTi · 2006-05-31, 09:30 AM

What FSB did you get?

I was told yesterday that my new FSB will be available Monday or Tuesday next week. (June 5th, 6th.) Mine is gonna be the 32mm StranoBar.

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NevadaSTi

What FSB did you get?

I was told yesterday that my new FSB will be available Monday or Tuesday next week. (June 5th, 6th.) Mine is gonna be the 32mm StranoBar.

I got the whiteline 27-29mm bar.

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 09:42 AM

[QUOTE=sperry]Springs: 550lb/in front, 550lb/in rear
Sways: 22mm front, 13mm rear

QUOTE]

Sorry Scott I meant camber settings.

sperry · 2006-05-31, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleurx

Sorry Scott I meant camber settings.

Somewhere between -2 and -4 up front, and -1 and -2 in the rear is the best I can guess. It's just eyeballed.

Dean · 2006-05-31, 10:41 AM

More than -1.5 degrees of camber will result in inside edge wear unless a significant portion of your miles are autocross, or track.

Remember, for the most part, Scott doesn't drive his on the street much.

At -2.5, -2, you will wear inner edges as well on road courses with significant braking zones, though it will really feel good doing so.

Typically, for optimal grip at autocross/track, fronts are .5 degrees more than rears.

I am currently at -1.3 degrees front (max stock), and -1.5 rear (no camber bolts/arms yet) and it handles pretty well at the track. I think -1.5, -1 would be a nice compromise setup if you have rear bolts/arms.

A little toe out on the two ends can help turn in and rotation at the expense of tires, and street driveability.

SlickNick112 · 2006-05-31, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doubleurx

I got the whiteline 27-29mm bar.

Great bar, I installed mine 2 weeks ago and raced on it this last weekend. The car is so planted now through the turns, It's beautiful. I love it. Nice choice.

sperry · 2006-05-31, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

A little toe out on the two ends can help turn in and rotation at the expense of tires, and street driveability.

Keep in mind that the toe out that makes the car turn also makes the car unstable in a straight line. Toe out under heavy/high-speed braking has a rather high pucker-factor... we're talking Mt. Dew Extreme levels of pucker factor when you brake late for the corner.

Dean · 2006-05-31, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

Keep in mind that the toe out that makes the car turn also makes the car unstable in a straight line. Toe out under heavy/high-speed braking has a rather high pucker-factor... we're talking Mt. Dew Extreme levels of pucker factor when you brake late for the corner.

I couldn't resist.

Jessep (Dean): You want toe out?
Kaffee (Scott): I think I'm entitled to it.
Jessep: You want Toe Out?
Kaffee: I want TOE OUT!
Jessep: You can't handle the Toe Out! Son, we live in a world that has walls and braking zones. And those walls are right next to the braking zones, and the runoff. Who's gonna be there when the car gets a little squirrelly? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for straight line stability and you curse the meandering car. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Toe out, while scary, probably saves time. And it's existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves tenths...You don't want the toe out. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want to stay on the track. You need to stay on the track.
We use words like turn in, apex, rotation...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent going faster. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very handling toe provides, then questions the manner in which it provides it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you shut up and drive. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!
Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
Jessep: (quietly) I drove the car the way I do.
Kaffee: Did you order the code red?
Jessep: Goddamn I don't even like Mountain Dew!!

Edit: In case it isn't clear, this is supposed to be funny, not an attack on Scott in any way.

khail19 · 2006-05-31, 02:24 PM

Wow

tysonK · 2006-05-31, 02:30 PM

Woah

sperry · 2006-05-31, 02:42 PM

Dean, that is probably the biggest waste of time you've every committed to on this board.

Good show.

Dean · 2006-05-31, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sperry

Dean, that is probably the biggest waste of time you've every committed to on this board.

Good show.

Your mountain dew reference made me think of "code red", and the words you can't handle the toe out imediately jumped to mind and forced me to go find the quote, and hack it a bit. Only about 5 minutes of work really, but quite amusing at least to me.

Kevin M · 2006-05-31, 02:58 PM

Well played sir. Well played, indeed.

sperry · 2006-05-31, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dean

Your mountain dew reference made me think of "code red", and the words you can't handle the toe out imediately jumped to mind and forced me to go find the quote, and hack it a bit. Only about 5 minutes of work really, but quite amusing at least to me.

Um... I had a Code Red for breakfast. I must be extreme!

...but I'm not extreme enough to convert A Few Good Men into a discussion about race alignments.

bruspeed · 2006-05-31, 03:04 PM

*starts slow clap*

Impressive.

khail19 · 2006-05-31, 03:08 PM

The force is strong with this one.

doubleurx · 2006-05-31, 06:31 PM

Well I picked up my car today and the sway bar change is very noticeable in the drive. I think it also cured the slight rub between the front tires and the inner wheel well, but we will see with a little more driving. I went with a fairly conservative alignment - 1.5 in front, -1.2 in back with 0 toe all around. Considering the tires (rt-615 (255/40/17) it tracks very straight on trashed route 89 north of Truckee.

Oh and Dean thankyou for helping me realize that senility has company.

Joeyy · 2006-07-01, 12:19 PM

Looking at adding camber to the front of the Grey Wagon. I think I can add it with the top mounts of the coilovers and then take it out in the off times?

MattR · 2006-07-01, 01:22 PM

If you have adjustable top mounts, then that is indeed what they are designed to do.

2006-05-31, 08:55 AM	#1
doubleurx EJ205 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Truckee Posts: 1,948	Alignment and new sway bar Well I am getting a new FSB installed and an alignment this afternoon. Looking for feedback on the alignment. Looking for street tire survival and still fun at the track. I am planning on going with 0 toe all around, -1.6 front camber and -1.2 camber. Does this sound reasonable, not agressive enough or? The 255/40 RT 615's fit fine, but slightly rub at full lock on the inside front fender liner going over steep slope transitions. I have a feeling that the front FSB will cure this - hopefully. __________________ Does it have a motor..............Does it have a motor?

2006-05-31, 09:30 AM	#7
NevadaSTi EJ251 Real Name: Brian Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Minden, Nv. Posts: 989 Car: 1994 Toyota 4Runner Some mistakes are too much fun to only make once	What FSB did you get? I was told yesterday that my new FSB will be available Monday or Tuesday next week. (June 5th, 6th.) Mine is gonna be the 32mm StranoBar. __________________ The last living thing on earth will be me. I'll step on the last cockroach.

2006-05-31, 09:42 AM	#9
doubleurx EJ205 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Truckee Posts: 1,948	[QUOTE=sperry]Springs: 550lb/in front, 550lb/in rear Sways: 22mm front, 13mm rear QUOTE] Sorry Scott I meant camber settings. __________________ Does it have a motor..............Does it have a motor?

2006-05-31, 10:41 AM	#11
Dean Señor Cheap Bastarde Real Name: Dean Join Date: May 2003 Location: $99 Tire Store Posts: 9,294 Car: $.04 STI Class: Fast,Cheap & Reliable=STI Deal, did somebody say Deal? Oh, Dean, yeah that's me.	More than -1.5 degrees of camber will result in inside edge wear unless a significant portion of your miles are autocross, or track. Remember, for the most part, Scott doesn't drive his on the street much. At -2.5, -2, you will wear inner edges as well on road courses with significant braking zones, though it will really feel good doing so. Typically, for optimal grip at autocross/track, fronts are .5 degrees more than rears. I am currently at -1.3 degrees front (max stock), and -1.5 rear (no camber bolts/arms yet) and it handles pretty well at the track. I think -1.5, -1 would be a nice compromise setup if you have rear bolts/arms. A little toe out on the two ends can help turn in and rotation at the expense of tires, and street driveability. __________________ I am a Commodore PET --- Now get off my lawn you kids...

2006-05-31, 02:30 PM	#16
tysonK warehouse SECCS Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: SoCal... Posts: 6,253 Car: 04 Evo 99 Cadillac Class: street de le mod	Woah __________________ Anjali? Anjali? Last edited by tysonK; 2006-05-31 at 02:31 PM. Reason: Wow was taken

2006-05-31, 09:02 AM	#2
MikeK Captain Turbo Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Reno Posts: 3,318 Car: 05 STi	As long as you have 0 toe wear will not be a problem. I am running more negative camber than that, especially at the rear, and I have noticed any unusual wear on the inside edge.

2006-05-31, 02:24 PM	#15
khail19 EJ205 Real Name: Khail Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,769 Car: 2016 VW GTI Meets? We have meets?	Wow

2006-05-31, 02:42 PM	#17
sperry The Doink Real Name: Scott Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 20,335 Car: '09 OBXT, '02 WRX, '96 Miata Class: PDX/TT-6 The way out is through	Dean, that is probably the biggest waste of time you've every committed to on this board. Good show. __________________ Is you is, or is you ain't, my con-stit-u-ints?

2006-05-31, 02:58 PM	#19
Kevin M EJ22T Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Reno Posts: 9,445 Car: '93/'01 GF6, mostly red Class: 19 FP	Well played sir. Well played, indeed. __________________ FWD is the new AWD

2006-05-31, 03:04 PM	#21
bruspeed EJ251 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Sparks Posts: 526 Car: 2005 2.5 rs cgm Class: TDSP	starts slow clap Impressive. __________________ Can anybody fly this thing?

2006-05-31, 03:08 PM	#22
khail19 EJ205 Real Name: Khail Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 1,769 Car: 2016 VW GTI Meets? We have meets?	The force is strong with this one.

2006-05-31, 06:31 PM	#23
doubleurx EJ205 Join Date: May 2004 Location: Truckee Posts: 1,948	Well I picked up my car today and the sway bar change is very noticeable in the drive. I think it also cured the slight rub between the front tires and the inner wheel well, but we will see with a little more driving. I went with a fairly conservative alignment - 1.5 in front, -1.2 in back with 0 toe all around. Considering the tires (rt-615 (255/40/17) it tracks very straight on trashed route 89 north of Truckee. Oh and Dean thankyou for helping me realize that senility has company. __________________ Does it have a motor..............Does it have a motor?

2006-07-01, 12:19 PM	#24
Joeyy i can has kart? Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: CA Posts: 1,228	Looking at adding camber to the front of the Grey Wagon. I think I can add it with the top mounts of the coilovers and then take it out in the off times?

2006-07-01, 01:22 PM	#25
MattR El Matador Real Name: Matt Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Reno, NV Posts: 10,660 Car: 2012 Toyota Tacoma Class: ?	If you have adjustable top mounts, then that is indeed what they are designed to do. __________________ "Dallas..We have a problem.”