Since we never had a thread on healthcare...

[sperry]

...here's one now. Sorta.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010...use-democrats/

FBI Investigates Possible Threats Directed at House Democrats

FOXNews.com

Federal law enforcement officials are looking into at least two possible threats directed at members of Congress and their families that Democrats suggest are related to their vote for health care reform.

More than 10 lawmakers have complained they've received threats since the run-up to Sunday's House vote on a health insurance overhaul, House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer said Wednesday, and law enforcement officials are taking the allegations seriously.

Federal law enforcement officials are investigating at least two possible threats directed at members of Congress and their families that Democrats suggest are related to their vote for health care reform. Plus the office of Rep. Bart Stupak, D-Mich. -- who initially opposed the Senate's health bill over concerns about abortion funding but switched to support the plan following assurance from the White House -- has received several threatening messages, recordings of which have been obtained by Fox News.

"The incidents of threats whether in person or through telephones or through other communication devices, have given great concern to members, for the safety of themselves and their families," Hoyer told reporters.

"Clearly our democracy is about participation. Our democracy is about differing and debate, and animated debate and passionate debate -- but it is not about violence," he added. "It is about making sure that everybody in America feels free to express their opinion ... without subjecting themselves their family or others to behavior, and frankly criminal behavior, in some respects, that undermines our democracy."

House Rules Committee Chairwoman Louise Slaughter, D-N.Y., said Wednesday the FBI is investigating recent vandalism at her office in Niagara Falls, adding the incident was "a dreadful thing."

"The man doing it said it was because it will prevent civil war," Slaughter said.

According to a report in the Buffalo News, a brick was thrown through a window in Slaughter's office, causing about $350 worth of damage. The report said another window was broken at the Monroe County Democratic headquarters in Rochester, and cited similar incidents elsewhere in the country.

Slaughter said she was not concerned about threats to her other offices because they all have security guards.

But the New York lawmaker said she thought it was part of a pattern.

The FBI is also investigating a separate incident at the home of Virginia Rep. Tom Perriello's brother. Perriello's office confirmed that a line to a propane tank on a gas grill was cut at Bo Periello's Charlottesville home on Tuesday. Tea Party activists had posted the address online thinking it was the congressman's home, telling opponents to drop by and "express their thanks" for his vote.

Perriello said in a written statement that it's "too early to say anything definitive regarding political motivations behind this act," but that political leaders should nevertheless condemn threats of violence, "particularly as threats to other members of Congress and their children escalate."

"Here in America, we settle our political differences at the ballot box," he said.

Mo Myers, a spokesman at the FBI's Richmond field office, said the FBI is working with local authorities. He said no one was hurt in the incident at Perriello's brother's home.

Mike Troxel, the blogger who posted the address online, told Fox News' Alan Colmes that he was encouraging voters to go to Perriello's house.

"I think people should have the right to have access to their, um, public officials," he said.

When asked if children of public officials should be harassed at their house just because they're related, Troxel said, "You know, I think that's a burden that comes with being an elected official."

The voice mails left for Stupak were particularly graphic. In one recording, a man swears at Stupak repeatedly while wishing for him to die.

"Congressman Stupak, you baby-killing mother f---er. ... I hope you bleed out your a--, got cancer and die, you mother f---er," he says.

"You and your family are scum," a man is heard saying in another message.

Rep. John Larson, D-Conn., chairman of the House Democratic Caucus, blamed Republicans for the threats, calling on them to condemn the actions and speak directly to their supporters.

"They must ask their supporters to ratchet down their extreme rhetoric and cease this threatening behavior," he said in a written statement. "People have a right to assemble and speak their minds. But, inciting or enflaming violence against elected officials and their families is over the line and inappropriate."

House Republican Leader John Boehner, in an interview with Fox News, acknowledged that people are "angry" about the health care bill but said "violence and threats are unacceptable."

"It is not the American way. Yes, I know there is anger, but let's take that anger and go out and register people to vote, go volunteer on a political campaign, and let's do it the right way," he said.

The complaints have escalated since Democratic lawmakers said they were accosted over the weekend by protesters on Capitol Hill in the run-up to Sunday's vote.

Several black lawmakers said that as they were walking by protesters Saturday on their way to a procedural vote on Capitol Hill, a group of demonstrators shouted at them and called them the n-word.

"They were just shouting, harassing," Rep. John Lewis, D-Ga., said.

In addition, Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, a black congressman from Missouri, said he was spit on by someone in the crowd who was later detained.

Tea Party protesters, though, dispute those accounts, saying they never heard racially charged language in the crowd. The man detained for allegedly spitting at Cleaver was also let go after, according to Capitol Police, Cleaver was unable to positively identify him.

Cleaver's office said the congressman chose not to press charges.

First off, my take on the whole healthcare system in general: ideally, it would all be totally deregulated, totally open market. Unfortunately, we don't live in an ideal world, and there are tons of people that get left out in our existing attempt at "free market" services. In that light, I think we as a successful society owe it to the people of the nation to provide for universal health care, in line with the other services like the military, police, rescue, etc services we provide to all.

That said... the above article is despicable. Now I understand that people feel like the Democrats are "pulling a fast one" by pushing forward and passing legislation that the Republicans don't support. But that's the nature of our (crappy) two party system. Right now the Democrats are in power, and this is the boon they get because the majority of the nation elected them.

But no level of sore-loserism can justify threatening lawmakers who are simply trying to make the country better as they see it. Do people really believe that the healthcare bill is a ploy to take over america from the inside? Really? There's far more evidence that stuff like the DMCA, or Gitmo, or the Patriot Act, or the DOHS have drastically reduced our freedom far more than the silly slippery slope that people run down when they suggest that gov't run healthcare is a precursor to Nazi-style concentration camps and totalitarianism socialism. Maybe the Democrats are right, or maybe they're wrong about whether or not universal healthcare will be good for the nation... but certainly it's not some nefarious takeover of the gov't to make us into socialists... and certainly it doesn't warrant threats to members of Congress.

And while I'm ranting about all things political... I have to mention the Tea Party folks. They've got it both right, and horribly wrong. They're right about protesting our gov't getting larger and out of control. They're right about not wanting to pay more and more taxes to a gov't that can't seem to budget themselves out of a paper bag. But they're so far off the mark with who they're protesting against it's borderline comical. It's not the Democrats in power that are the real problem, if anything they're the party the Tea Party guys should be supporting! Sure the Democrats lean towards social programs and are more willing to spend money and regulate the economy. But it's really the big corporations that lobby both parties, but have traditionally held the Republicans close in hand, that are the real problem behind our issues with the nation's policy and laws getting so divorced from what the general public wants.

Our country was founded on the believe that gov't should be "for the people and by the people". Then somewhere along the lines, corporate entities were validated as having the same rights as individuals. The problem is that corporations have far more leverage in terms of money and power than an individual. So by allowing them the same access to lobby the lawmakers as individuals, corporations end up having nearly unchecked sway in the laws that are passed. And even that wouldn't be all that bad except for this: individuals and corporations are both held responsible to the law of the land, but individuals also hold themselves responsible to their own personal moral code, while corporations hold themselves responsible to their shareholders. Anytime you have an entity that's morally responsible to profit... greed is there lurking in the shadows.

So what happens is that we've got corporations that are morally responsible to make money any way legal... which eventually includes spending money to lobby for laws that help them profit as long as the lobbying cost is less than the cost of doing business under existing or proposed laws. Now the laws that we're all accountable to are phrased in a manner to allow big businesses to profit regardless of the side effects felt by the individuals. We're no longer a gov't by the people for the people, we're a gov't by the corporations for the corporations. Most individuals are left struggling to get by without the support of the gov't that should be there to ensure they have their right to pursue health and happiness. We end up tied to our jobs, tied to our debt, tied to playing the roll of a consumer over the roll of a person. I don't care what political spectrum you subscribe to, you have to see the injustice of people having to chose between dying and losing their life savings because our gov't wants to protect the ability of insurance and pharmaceutical companies to make a profit. IMO that's blatantly contrary to what our nation was founded upon... "we the people".

So I applaud the Tea Party movement... I just think they should turn on the hand that feeds them if they'd really like to address the source of the problem they say they're fighting. If you want your individual rights upheld, if you want the option to chose for yourself, if you want your vote to count more than the dollars Exxon piles your Congressperson with, if you want big government to be thinned down... it's not the Democrat's healthcare plan, or a lean towards socialism, or tax raises you should be trying to stop... it's the campaign and lobby money quietly coming from the few megacorporations that are really deciding our nation's policies and laws. If our individual rights trump that of corporations, then we will once again have the power to elect folks that will do what's right for us, regardless of whether you're for or against stuff like universal healthcare.

/mega-rant off... now, did anyone bother to read enough of this to fight with me? (seriously though, I'd love to hear a well thought out contrary argument)

[Kevin M]

I read nearly all of it before running out of steam. I'd pick a fight, except I pretty much agree with you. Democrats win, so they get to make the rules. Conservatives should be praising baby Jesus every night that they've shot themselves in the foot as much as they already have.

[Nick Koan]

I hope the tea partiers realize that if they actually start a civil war, we're the ones with free health care.

[knucklesplitter]

I have spent a good bit of time in France and Canada, and worked for a French company for 12 years, and I can say that they are pretty happy overall with their single-payer healthcare, despite what the FauxNews Teabagger Network might tell you. Of course they have gripes, but nothing like what we gripe about relative to our for-profit (big profit) insurance companies controlling our health and well being. FauxNews usually interviews some wingnut Canadian expatriot who is fairly well off and loves the healthcare in the States compared to back home. I bet they would be fine no matter where they were.

I have actually met a couple of these semi-ex-Canadians. One worked for a gold mining company here and she had nothing good to say about Canada taxes and healthcare. Well... that was until she got pregnant. I bet you can guess what she did. Headed back home to get it all payed for, including paid maternity leave, etc.

Normal everyday Canadians are mostly pretty proud of it actually. A guy I worked with in Ontario had knee problems. One time while up there he was limping around. He said he hurt it and needed to get it operated on. I asked how long would it take to get an appointment for an operation like that. See, I has always been told that their were these long wait lists and Canadians would flock across the border for procedures that were so much better and more available in the States. He said, "Whataya mean, eh? Goin' toomorrow. Thaat's why we needed you heere t'day on this proh-ject." Then when he realized my ignorance he got somewhat offended and gave me a hard time forever-after.

No, they don't like their higher taxes, but yes, they are in general happy with the healthcare.

Some of the frogs I worked with would actually fly back to France for major procedures. With their dual citizenship they were covered back in France, and it was cheaper to pay airfare (pre-911) than to pay their deductibles, + co-pays, etc. They loved it here, but hated the health insurance.

Now back then when I pointed this out to people they would always poo poo France's socialism, and their high unemployment rate, and their 38-hr workweek, and their 8 weeks of paid vacation (the horror!). I guess better overall health, longer lifespan, lower infant mortality and shit like that didn't matter compared to their high unemployment and their welfare state. Well France's *real* unemployment rate is better than ours now, so tell me again how we do it better than them?

[ScottyS]

Haha, I really don't have the interest or energy to deal with this issue at the moment, plus class starts in 16min.

Suffice to say, Party Politics is a game, not a solution. There are huge problems with where our government/society have gone, if measured by the "American" yardstick of personal freedom, personal accountability, hard work, and opportunity. It did not start last week, and both Parties are driving it.

Yes, the reset button needs to be dusted off. But nobody playing Party Politics has the true will or stones to uncap the can of Pledge.

This is why I have not paid close attention to national politics for some years.

[cody]

I'm with Sperry. The government's sole purpose is to protect the people from injustice, but too often it panders to the needs of corporations instead. Capitalism is all fine and good, but without laws designed to protect us, the environment and human rights are thrown out the window.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Haha, I really don't have the interest or energy to deal with this issue at the moment, plus class starts in 16min.

Suffice to say, Party Politics is a game, not a solution. There are huge problems with where our government/society have gone, if measured by the "American" yardstick of personal freedom, personal accountability, hard work, and opportunity. It did not start last week, and both Parties are driving it.

Yes, the reset button needs to be dusted off. But nobody playing Party Politics has the true will or stones to uncap the can of Pledge.

This is why I have not paid close attention to national politics for some years.

It's truly discouraging, isn't it? I align much more with one party than the other overall, but I am constantly disappointed and disillusioned with that party and hate them for it. This healthcare "victory" is a perfect example. The enemy of my enemy is my friend though... I guess.

[MikeK]

That reminds me, I should head home for some free healthcare.

[MPREZIV]

Mike wins.

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by MikeK

That reminds me, I should head home for some free healthcare.

Yah, fly halfway around the world to get your cholesterol checked for free!

[MikeK]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

Yah, fly halfway around the world to get your cholesterol checked for free!

I have to, they don't have metric dipsticks here.

[Kevin M]

Probably can't find the right thread pitch for your prostate exams either.

[A1337STI]

As someone who has worked since he was 13 , and has always had health insurance either due to my dad or my own job this Quote really rings out to me ...

"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'"
-- Thomas Jefferson

If you want people who currently don't have health care, to have it, Start a new charity , we don't need the government forcing it upon everyone.

[A1337STI]

One more that i think is true (Though i agree with Sperry we need more more open / free market health care system for this to work properly)

Repeal that [welfare] law, and you will soon see a change in their manners. St. Monday and St. Tuesday, will soon cease to be holidays. Six days shalt thou labor, though one of the old commandments long treated as out of date, will again be looked upon as a respectable precept; industry will increase, and with it plenty among the lower people; their circumstances will mend, and more will be done for their happiness by inuring them to provide for themselves, than could be done by dividing all your estates among them.
Benjamin Franklin, letter to Collinson, May 9, 1753

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by A1337STI

As someone who has worked since he was 13 , and has always had health insurance either due to my dad or my own job this Quote really rings out to me ...

"To take from one, because it is thought that his own industry and that of his fathers has acquired too much, in order to spare others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association, 'the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry, and the fruits acquired by it.'"
-- Thomas Jefferson

If you want people who currently don't have health care, to have it, Start a new charity , we don't need the government forcing it upon everyone.

I have been working since I was 13 too (and that's 30+ years for me). I currently do not have health insurance through my employer because he is me. I cannot afford anything other than very-high-deductible anti-catastrophic coverage, which is basically no coverage unless something serious happens, and then it will only prevent bankruptcy if you are lucky.

Please make your check out to the "KS Healthcare Charity Fund c/o KS Enterprises LLC".

J/K. Actually I have insurance through my girlfriend, as we are are "domestic partners". Thank gawd for gay-rights advocates or I would be SOL.

[ScottyS]

One comment - if welfare didn't exist, and people had to pay out of their own pockets or form insurance cooperatives, would not prices and care be more realistic and practical?

The only reason that health care is so crazy expensive is because you are in direct competition with welfare babies who go to the doc at every opportune moment. Think of everything in terms of who you are competing with. Toss in the confounding factor of a completely irresponsible court/justice system, and it's not hard to figure out why health insurance is so expensive and yet practically ineffective in many ways.

It's kinda like buying a house - single-income families cannot compete in a market driven by dual-income families, everything else being equal.

[Kevin M]

Using that logic, health care in socialized medicine systems would cost infinity, since everybody is a 'welfare baby.' But the actual cost of health care in every other modern western democracy is less, per capita, than ours. the reason our health care costs are so high is because we don't have any protection against capitalism gone to extremes in this segment of the economy. Our government goes crazy trying to find ways to cut down Microsoft's profits, but they do literally nothing to stop health care insurance providers from raping us like crazy.

[cody]

I thought the gouging was more from the healthcare system, not the health insurance companies?

[Kevin M]

Originally Posted by cody

I thought the gouging was more from the healthcare system, not the health insurance companies?

I'm confused about what "the system" means outside of the corporations?

[cody]

I just heard on the radio that health insurance companies actually have a very small profit margin. But I know that health industries (like the pharmaceutical drugs industry) make bank.

[sperry]

These are the services I believe my gov't should provide to all for "free", paid for by our taxes:

education (K-college)
military
justice
police
fire
rescue
medical/healthcare
basic food/clothing/shelter

In short, no one in the country should have to be stupid, hungry, sick, or homeless unless they choose to be. Citizens should all have universal access to these basic services as a benefit of living in a modern society. Outside of that, people should be free to do anything they wish so long as it doesn't infringe on another person's freedom to do the same.

If you want to mooch off the system, go right ahead. I just have a hard time believe there are many people that would aspire to nothing having been provided with a quality college education. If the gov't is going to be paying for your basic services, you should be required to get an education.

And all of that should be paid for with a flat national sales tax. No more income tax... just a VAT on all goods sold at all steps along the manufacturing pipeline. So even if you're a welfare moocher, unless you're living on just the bare necessities paid for by welfare, you're going to be paying taxes on the stuff you buy.

[Kevin M]

Something like 30% of all health care money goes to administrative costs. Salaries of the Board, and of the people who do nothing but process claims and billing and manage those people, and manage those people, and write new claim forms, and create shiny marketing brochures, and find legal loopholes to deny claims, and funnel money to Congress to create more loopholes, and sit in an office and take a slice of money to determine which conglomerate your money for premiums will go to, who all provide nothing in terms of value to the rest of us. That money is not included in "profits" on accounting sheets. "Profit" is the money that hey can't say they spent on something else, so yeah, it's not a very high percentage. A huge amount of health care cost is spent just running the massive insurance machine.

[ScottyS]

Originally Posted by Kevin M

Using that logic, health care in socialized medicine systems would cost infinity, since everybody is a 'welfare baby.' But the actual cost of health care in every other modern western democracy is less, per capita, than ours. the reason our health care costs are so high is because we don't have any protection against capitalism gone to extremes in this segment of the economy. Our government goes crazy trying to find ways to cut down Microsoft's profits, but they do literally nothing to stop health care insurance providers from raping us like crazy.

Do you really believe that the actual cost per given service will be less in a socialized system vs. a free market system, quality being equal?

[knucklesplitter]

Originally Posted by ScottyS

Do you really believe that the actual cost per given service will be less in a socialized system vs. a free market system, quality being equal?

Abso-fucking-lutely. Our current healthcare mess is one of (if not *the* most) expensive of industrialized nations, yet we rank like #30. France's is considered the best (single payer with independent doctors, etc.). I would hope we could do better than the French. Maybe not, though.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by knucklesplitter

Abso-fucking-lutely. Our current healthcare mess is one of (if not *the* most) expensive of industrialized nations, yet we rank like #30. France's is considered the best (single payer with independent doctors, etc.). I would hope we could do better than the French. Maybe not, though.

I have to agree.

Our current system not only costs us more out of pocket than any other, we also spend more via taxes than most countries with socialized healthcare.

Basically, we're getting the worst of both worlds right now. And it's not so much because of a failure of free market vs. socialized healthcare, it's because our "free market" has been allowed to manipulate the gov't so much via lobbyists. We already have socialized healthcare... except our taxes aren't paying into the system to help citizens, they're paying into the system to subsidize the insurance and drug companies massive profits.

We need to either put all the companies out of business by totally socializing the industry, or put them all out of business to force them to start over and actually compete. Because right now they're getting away with murder (almost literally). Even the ObamaCare changes aren't really forcing them to compete with anyone.