Coilovers help

[Dean]

As I recall, that photo is very old of a design not in production for many years. I think there was something else hinky about it, but don't recall what. Unfortunately there is no Snopes.com for Forum myths.

[WRX06TR]

Sorry just forget to post the link...

http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...5&pagenumber=1

[sperry]

Originally Posted by WRX06TR

Sorry just forget to post the link...

http://www.lancerregister.com/showth...5&pagenumber=1

My units were fitted in April / May 2005. The design was apparently revised shortly after.

They did get a lot of track use and as such saw loads far in excess of what you'd get during normal road driving, that said, they're marketed as a road / track product and shouldn't have failed.

You can tell the later units as they have a lip on the top of the tube that failed on mine.

The design of the Super Street and the Mono Flex is different so they shouldn't fail like this - the later Flex brackets are still welded AFAIK so could have this issue but are far less likely.

Cheers,

Simon

[WRX06TR]

Yeah, I read that too...I'm not trying to slander Tein, I was just saying that my personal reason for not wanting a set of the Teins, was stuff of that nature. They just weren't my choice of coilover, but you guys have had no issues with them so they can't be too bad. Sorry to seriously derail the thread.

[20psiMR]

They arent that bad for a budget coilover, and you guys definitely make them work. But they wouldnt be my first choice. Actually I was offered some 40k mile tein flex's straight trade for my MR suspension and passed. They have very small dampening range despite how many "clicks" they say you can turn. Ive had discussions with a few good suspension tuners before and most japanese coilovers, with the exception of Ohlins, have that problem. They are generally valved very stiff, the shock dyno's are all over the place, and they just arent that well constructed.

Trust me, if someone else was driving my car, it would be a different story. This year has been a big learning curve for me, I was on stock suspension last year in Vegas and placing 2nd vs a guy with rcomps. No tire pax down there. Up here, you guys can drive! Give it time, you will all be trading the subys for evo's soon!

[Dean]

Originally Posted by 20psiMR

They have very small dampening range despite how many "clicks" they say you can turn. Ive had discussions with a few good suspension tuners before and most japanese coilovers, with the exception of Ohlins, have that problem. They are generally valved very stiff, the shock dyno's are all over the place, and they just arent that well constructed.

For a given spring and corner weight, there should only need to be a small range of damping adjustment, largely to adjust for wear over time. Back in the dark ages, that is what the knob on the top of Koni's were designed for. A click every 10-20,000 miles would keep them in an optimal range for a given application.

A damper only needs a wide range of adjustability if it is designed to work with multiple spring configurations. This is not how most retail coilovers are designed/marketed. They are designed to work with the springs that came on them only or relatively small rate changes higher or lower. In most cases, dampers with a lot of adjustability lack the precision to be ideally tuned. 30 clicks over a 5% range is much more precise than 30 clicks over a 15% range.

And your average driver has little to no clue or the time and controlled environment to properly adjust a suspension. As a manufacturer, the last thing you want is to provide too much adjustability that it creates a negative product perception. Too many people think stiffer is better for handing, or that softer rides better and crank the knob in that direction blindly. Neither of these is really true.

I agree on the Shock Dyno numbers for a lot of the brands. I can't remember the site, but there is a guy who has run most of the major damper vendors stuff and much is crap being inconsistent for a given setting or worse, adjustment going opposite the direction of the knob change over some range.

I don't recall where Tein ranked, but it was better than most "JDM Yo" brands.

[20psiMR]

I want penskes, or I would "settle" for motons....in a perfect world that is!

[sperry]

Originally Posted by 20psiMR

I want penskes, or I would "settle" for motons....in a perfect world that is!

I was about to pull the trigger on Motons for the race car. Then I found I could get the same size inverted DA dampers, plus springs, caster/camber front top mounts, camber rear top mounts, with independent ride height adjustment for the same price as just the Moton dampers alone by getting the Tein SuperRace coilovers. Plus I wouldn't have to cut holes in the car for the remote reservoirs.

Sure the Motons are pretty slick, but when you start adding in the cost of spring, top mounts, etc... you're looking at around $7,000 for an STi. At which point, just get some Ohlins for that much that come with all the parts. Like Dean mentioned... getting a ton of adjustability usually just makes it easier to screw up the settings unless you've got the time and experience to run a bunch of test days at the track dialing it in.

[IheartSTI]

I just sold some tein flex and put some stock stuts with tein lowering springs. Even the tein lowering springs are too stiff for me(and my family). I think you really should stay away from coilovers unless you are doing a track application. Maybe it has been mentioned but you have to take into consideration getting them rebuilt every so often. especially with rough roads we have in Nevada... I don’t say this to discourage anyone who might want coilovers you just have to take all points into consideration. will $1700 be better spent for other parts for your streetcar-probably. do you want to be slammed every time you hit a crack in the road-probably not. Are you ready to have them rebuilt every so often? (tein charges 100 per coilover for basic rebuild).

[Dean]

Originally Posted by IheartSTI

Maybe it has been mentioned but you have to take into consideration getting them rebuilt every so often. especially with rough roads we have in Nevada... I don’t say this to discourage anyone who might want coilovers you just have to take all points into consideration. will $1700 be better spent for other parts for your streetcar-probably. do you want to be slammed every time you hit a crack in the road-probably not. Are you ready to have them rebuilt every so often? (tein charges 100 per coilover for basic rebuild).

Just to be clear, the ability to rebuild is a positive, not a negative!

The stock struts are also COIL springs OVER mcpherson Struts and in all Subaru instances I am aware of, cannot be rebuilt!!! They must be replaced or have the tops cut off and have lower capacity small main shaft inserts installed for much more than $100!!!

All dampers fail over time!!! Inverted mono shocks need to be lubed and/or rebushed occasionally at a much lower cost than rebuild.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Just to be clear, the ability to rebuild is a positive, not a negative!

The stock struts are also COIL springs OVER mcpherson Struts and in all Subaru instances I am aware of, cannot be rebuilt!!! They must be replaced or have the tops cut off and have lower capacity small main shaft inserts installed for much more than $100!!!

All dampers fail over time!!! Inverted mono shocks need to be lubed and/or rebushed occasionally at a much lower cost than rebuild.

+1

$400 to rebuild a set of Teins every 3 years is a hell of a lot cheaper than buying new $1200 struts every three years.

[cody]

Koni inserts have a lifetime warranty and great customer service to back it up. If one blows, they'll ship you a replacement. I've seen a few reviewers say they've taken advantage of this and the replacements show up in a day or two at the most. Now reinstalling them and the subsequent alignment won't be fun, but I try to support companies with the best warranty/service whenever I can. They get nothing but glowing reviews in the performance department from what I've seen too. I noticed an improved ride compared to the AGX's but I don't know if they improved handling all that much yet.

[Dean]

Koni makes great stuff and as I recall one of the few damper manufacturers that gets high ratings for product consistency and adjustment precision on the shock dyno. I just wish they made a replacement strut rather than an insert for Subarus.

I am annoyed. I can't find any of my suspension tuning bookmarks and searching is not finding what I want.

[cody]

I wish I could figure out the best settings for them. On the AGX's it was easy to tell the difference between the 4 different stiffness settings and 2 (Med-soft) front and rear was by far the best for handling while autoXing (and for comfort every day). With the infinite adjustments and wide range of damping on the Konis, I'm a little lost. I just keep changing them to try to learn them.

Alex had a good method I think I'll try. He said that by looking at the hood and road or out the rearview you can tell how much bounce you're getting in the front vs rear. So I'll start at soft again and slowly stiffen them up again.

[Dean]

Parking lot speed bumps work well for ballpark settings. An external observer is a big help.

Start full soft. Drive over the bump having observer focus on one end of the car. Firm up that end until it catches the vehicle weight on the first bounce and doesn't launch that end on impact with the bump.

Do the other end of the car.

Go back to the first end and see if you can go softer with less launch and still catches the car's weight on the first bounce. Repeat on the other end.

Softer than "feels" best is often faster. Your brain attributes feeling the road with good handling, but that is often over damping the springs in one or both directions. Remember, this is not about driver perception, it is about keeping the tire in contact with the road optimally.

Koni track adj. procedure

[cody]

Thanks Dean. Maybe we can use a speed bump at Tamarack tonight. I want to be ready for this weekend at RFR.