Anybody know anything about the Tein Super Racing coilovers?

[sperry]

...'cause I got a set coming from C&C by the end of the week for the trials on Saturday/Sunday.

http://www.tein.com/srdamp.html

They're double adjustable, inverted mono-tube, independent ride height adjustable, and some versions utilize an external piggy-back reservoir (though I don't think the STi version does...). Basically, I'm hoping they're a cross between the plug-n-play goodness of the Tein Flex's and the race capabilities of the KW V3's.

Apparently, one of the 24hrs of the Nurburgring STi's ran these dampers...



My only concern is that the 12/9 spring rates will be a bit too stiff for RFR, but if they're damped properly, I think it'll be fine.

A little side story... I tried to order these from Gruppe-S and MPJ, but both were out of stock for the '04 fitment. And since Tein won't drop ship, they'd have to be shipped from Tein in L.A. to Hayward/Fremont, the from there to me. Khamis reminded me that C&C is an authorized reseller, but since they don't sell a lot of units, they're required to sell 'em at MSRP, which is like $400 over the "street price". But since Dave and Justin are cool guys, they offered me a free corner-balance/alignment to help make up the difference. Awesome!

[Dean]

Cool. They should be interesting. The ratio seams a little off F/R, but I guess you'll see. Mine are 12.2/11.6

Are you changing to the TEIN camber plates? If not, you will probably need a different GC hat for the Teins. If you are switching, I call dibbs on you GC plates.

You may want to ask if the skid pad behind the drag strip start line is available for use for a little setup work over the weekend. double adjustables are quite a bit of work to setup initailly.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by Dean

Cool. They should be interesting. The ratio seams a little off F/R, but I guess you'll see. Mine are 12.2/11.6

Are you changing to the TEIN camber plates? If not, you will probably need a different GC hat for the Teins. If you are switching, I call dibbs on you GC plates.

You may want to ask if the skid pad behind the drag strip start line is available for use for a little setup work over the weekend. double adjustables are quite a bit of work to setup initailly.

My goal is to make it out to RFR on Friday. I got a call into Jeremey to see if I can get him to add a Friday open practice for the SCCA event. Apparently I'm the 3rd guy to call the track about it, so it's pretty likely it'll happen.

I agree about the spring rates, the rears seem a little soft compared to the front, especially since I'm planning on still running w/ the very soft rear swaybar. I think the Tein's use "standard" 2.5" ID springs, in which case, I can use my existing set of Eibach springs on 'em. I'd like to run 550/550 or 450/550.

I think the top nuts on the Teins will be too small for the GC topmounts. However, I should be able to get some bushings from Ground Control to match the Teins, as long as the Teins are bigger than the Konis (which are huge). So for this weekend, I'll just be running the Tein pillowballs, but I expect to switch back to the GC's if at all possible.

If I can't get the GC topmounts to work w/ the Teins, I'll be rebuilding my blown Koni's then selling them w/ the GC topmounts as a full kit, since they're actually a pretty nice setup if you don't need double-adjustability. So, I probably won't be looking to sell the GC topmounts seperately.

As far as double adjustable initial setup, you're right. It's not trivial by any stretch. However, one of the great things about Teins, is that they set them up at the factory to their recommended specs. So, not only do they provide you with recommended starting specs on their website, they actually dial 'em into the struts for you. My guess is that it'll be too low though... take a look at that picture afterall!

[MikeK]

Those things look good ... except for the 12k springs! Only someone with a second (or third) vehicle could own these

[sperry]

Originally Posted by MikeK

Those things look good ... except for the 12k springs! Only someone with a second (or third) vehicle could own these

That's for sure... my kidney's don't factor into my spring rates at all anymore. I'm just looking for the stiffest spring I can run that will stay smooth at RFR.

I think 12k springs probably aren't too stiff, as long as I can run a pretty soft bump setting w/o letting the spring get out of control.

[Dean]

Forgot to ask, what are the 2 ways, high speed bump, and rebound, low speed, or combined?

I can't find it at the moment, but I have/had/saw a good article on setting up 2 ways. For a track car, you often leave bump stiff, and soften rebound.

Tracks are typically smooth even if wavvy like RFR, so stiff bump minimizes roll, and lets you use those rumble strips, but allows the tire to get back on the ground at the end of them, and after any imperfections.

That is how my DMSes are setup.

Austin??? Some help here?

Edit, from the web page, I am guessing those are high speed, or combined...

[sperry]

I always thought double adjustables were low speed bump and low speed rebound, since they determin the car's handling. Fast bound/rebound are more for absorbing "shock", which isn't as critical.

My problems at RFR aren't really the harsh bumps/curbs/washboard... it's the longer stuff that loads up the rear of the car then launches it into the air... most notable at turn 1, where my current suspension basically tosses the rear of the car into the air making me balistic just after turn-in till the apex when the car comes back down and I have enough traction to turn right towards the apex of 2. Ask Eric, it's scary as hell in my car.

[Dean]

I know the KWs are low-mid speed, but for some reason, I thought Teins were high speed, or accross the entire range.

KW v3s were second on my list after teh DMSs.

Hey, what ever happened to the Ohlins you ordered???

[sperry]

I never orderd Ohlins. At one point I ordered some Motons, but then my motor broke (on my way to Gruppe-S), and I canceled the order out fear that I'd be buying a new motor. Since the motor turned out to be relatively minor, I decided to wait for the hub conversion kit to arrive before re-placing the order for the Motons. But FedEx lost my package and I'm *still* waiting on a resolution for that crap.

Anyway, I wasn't going to replace my struts 'till the hubs were converted, but since the Koni's are unsafe in the rear, <insert joke here>, I have to get something, or give up on two trials events. The Motons have jumped in price by about $1000... they're listed at $3999 + probably another $600 to get the quick-disconnects I need for the rear reservoirs. The Teins just came out, have all the features I'm looking for, cost like $2000 less, and when I do the hub conversion, it should be fairly easy to get a set of uprights for the '05 front knuckels because they just screw on to the struts.

Besides, had the Teins been out when I was originally shopping, I probably would have picked them over the Moton's simply because they're cheaper and Tein USA is in L.A., making rebuild shipping cheaper.

[Dean]

Moton, Ohlin, same part of the alphabet...

[tysonK]

Didn't you win PAX on Flex's? I say with no research on my part at least you are getting something from Tein, hopefully all the adjustments don't make them more hassle than just getting Flex's; setting it and forgetting it.

Those look stunning I must say.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by tysonK

Didn't you win PAX on Flex's? I say with no research on my part at least you are getting something from Tein, hopefully all the adjustments don't make them more hassle than just getting Flex's; setting it and forgetting it.

Those look stunning I must say.

That's part of what factored into my decision... Eric's car on Flex's is a dream to drive. There's something about those Teins that really works with my driving style I guess (I hope!). If I'm lucky (and I'm not ) the TSR's will be as easy to drive as the Flex's while being adjustable enough to work double duty between track and autocross.

[sybir]

It's trendy to bag on Teins in favor of some of the killer setups, but the reality is that they're one of the best, most thoroughly developed solutions for the money. They've also got real US support. Just look at your nightmare with the JIC's and compare to all of the guys who've just tossed on Flex's and rolled with it.

I'm convinced on my car, mine have over 60k on them and they still work perfectly, I adjust them often, no problems. I think you'll be happy with them as a bolt-on setup ans as a good middle ground between something like motons or todas and the more srteet-oriented coilovers out there.

I've also been known to talk out of my ass, though
Can't wait to see how they work for you on the track, I just know I'm putting Flex's on my next car, they're perfect with 17's.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

I always thought double adjustables were low speed bump and low speed rebound, since they determin the car's handling. Fast bound/rebound are more for absorbing "shock", which isn't as critical.

My problems at RFR aren't really the harsh bumps/curbs/washboard... it's the longer stuff that loads up the rear of the car then launches it into the air... most notable at turn 1, where my current suspension basically tosses the rear of the car into the air making me balistic just after turn-in till the apex when the car comes back down and I have enough traction to turn right towards the apex of 2. Ask Eric, it's scary as hell in my car.

Here's my $.02:

The particulars of what the adjustments on your shocks are actually doing in terms of Resistance Force vs. Velocity depends on how the manufacturer designed the adjustment mechanism and the shock itself. Even if they say it is only supposed to adjust the "low-speed" part of the curve, there will probably be some cross-talk and the "high-speed" part of the curve will be affected a bit too.

I wouldn't really agree with the statement that high speed isn't as critical as low speed, because the real purpose of a shock is to keep its tire planted on the pavement as firmly as possible at all times. It's best to approach shock tuning with this mindset instead of setting out to use them to fiddle with handling balance. There are plenty of other tools in the toolbox you can use to adjust handling balance. From my experience the mid to high-speed part of the curve is very critical to get right, since that's the region you're in during most disturbances to a tire (pretty much any bump, dip, curb, etc.) at speed. These sharp input situations are also usually the hardest to recover from if the car is really upset as a result. The low-speed part of the curve is mostly only encountered during body roll movement like you get at intial turn-in, or very long wavelength elevation rolling in the track.

As far as how to set up a track car, you have to be careful with the idea of using a lot of bump and not much rebound like Dean was saying. Track cars usually have pretty stiff wheel rates, and that will require more rebound stiffness to avoid having the car feel "floaty" and uncontrolled (underdamped). You can usually feel a lot of upward travel or "hang time" after a bump input when this is happening. When you've cranked in too much rebound, you'll really feel the car being pulled down after a bump input, and it will start feeling harsh (overdamped). In extreme cases of this the car will actually jack itself down onto the bumpstops if there is a series of rapid inputs, because the suspension doesn't have time to fully extend back to its normal ride height position before the next input.

You don't want to neglect bump stiffness either though, because too little can lead to extra travel during the compression stroke, and then you feel a lot of travel on the upward extension stroke which mimics the symptoms of not having enough rebound stiffness. So, you can see shock tuning is a bit tricky.

It's hard to speak in generalities because to really get a car right you need to know a LOT of specifics, but hopefully that helps. I would highly recommend looking through the Penske adjustable tech manual ( http://www.penskeshocks.com/technica.htm ), because it helps understand how these things physically work, which helps understand how tuning them works, and they have a good basic start-up tuning procedure in there too. Good luck man!

[sperry]

Thanks for that post Austin! I just got the knowledge rock dropped on my foot.

BTW, there are folk in the Stock Solo classes that *intentionally* install double adjustables and set them up for that "ratcheting" action. It's the only way to get the car to lower itself when stock springs are required.

[AtomicLabMonkey]

So how did they work?

[MikeK]

I'm guessing pretty well:

Originally Posted by MattR on saturday

Well, pretty damn good day for Scott and I, Scott ended up 3rd overall, I came 4th overall.

Originally Posted by MattR on Sunday

As far as today's event goes, more great results for Scott and I. Scott finished 2nd overall today, just a few tenth's off winning overall.

[sperry]

Originally Posted by AtomicLabMonkey

So how did they work?

The suspension is awesome. About eleventy billion times better than those blown Konis.

The design/quality of the gear is top of the line. To my surprise the topmounts it came with are caster/camber front, camber rear! I figured I'd have to modify my GC topmounts to work w/ the Teins in order to have that adjustability, but I get all that out of the box.

The dampers are 50mm (I think, they're friggen massive), inverted, dual reservoir. They use standard 2.5" ID springs, so I'll be able to keep my collection of Eibachs if I decide the current rates aren't ideal. I'm already leaning towards running a slightly stiffer rear spring to help avoid lifting rear tires up the hill at RFR. Plus, the car was really pushy with the 22f/13r swaybars I had on the car. Sunday morning I went back to my 20mm rear bar and it really helped the car turn... but I'd like to avoid tuning the balance w/ swaybars, and do it "right" with spring/damper rate.

The installation on Thursday night went pretty easy. I had already taken off the Konis, so it was just a matter of setting the caster to max on the front top mounts, then slapping 'em on the car. Friday morning I headed over to C&C for my complementary alignment/corner balance. Rusty (who actually had the day off, but came in anyway) tossed the car on the scales and check this out, it was already pretty much dead on: 3325 lbs, 60f/40r, 51l/49r. Basically, out of the box, the car was already corner balanced.

Since it wasn't going to take them any time to balance the car, Rusty offered to swap my LCA bushings for me to make up the difference. After some screwing around at the grinder to modify one of the presses to the right diameter, we were able to press out the rubber bushings, and in with the poly off-set bushings. Rusty told me since he's done it once, he's got no problem doing the bushing swap for any of you other wrx owners that want to upgrade to the stiffer legal LCA offset bushings (Whiteline p/n KCA 375).

For the alignment the car came out at:

Front -3.0 camber, +5.0 caster, 0.0 toe
Rear -2.2 camber, 0.0 toe

I will probably go to -3.5 camber in the front, and accept the little toe-out that comes with it, as the car needs a touch more front-end bite, and since I can use the differental setting under braking to dial-out the twitch that comes from toe-out.

As far as the damper setup, I went out to the track on Friday and took about 15-20 laps. The first two sessions I ran were just to familiarize myself w/ the track's configuration, as well as get some tire temp/pressure data to set them where I wanted it. Then I played w/ the dampers a bit. Here's where I ended up by the end of the weekend (IIRC, I'll have to check my notes, and the car itself to be sure):

1/16=full soft
16/16=full stiff

Front Spring: 12 kg/mm (672 lb/in)
Front Bump: 2/16
Front Rebound: 6/16
Front swaybar: 22mm

Rear Spring: 9 kg/mm (504 lb/in)
Rear Bump: 4/16
Rear Rebound: 10/16
Rear Swaybar: 20mm

Like I said, I think I want a bit more rear spring rate... but I can probably achieve the same effect by going softer at the front... better to add grip to the front, than to remove grip at the rear to tune the handling, right? 650f/550r, or 550f/550r might be close to what I need.

As far as the event itself, I was really happy. Saturday was a little tougher than Sunday, since it was so much hotter. The car was really struggling for power due to running so hot. Plus, with the 13mm rear swaybar, I was really front-ended and pushing around in all the slow corners, especially at the top of the hill. I was able to eek out a 3rd overall, but I had nothing for Art Majors' Vette, or Donna Gilio's ITA 'teg. 'Course Art's car is retarded fast, and he has 50 times the seat time at RFR than I do, and Donna's a Grand Am Cup driver, amongst other series, so I have to feel pretty good about coming 3rd to them. But still, I really wasn't a threat to their times.

Sunday though, I ran a single hot-lap in qualifying (to keep the car cool), and at the time, I was the *only* car to get below a 2 minute lap (1:59.9xx IIRC). Art had run a 2:00.0xx so I knew he was right there, but I thought that I might at least have a chance. I ran my timed laps kinda figuring my 1st would be the fastest due to heat-soak by lap 2. I made 2 noteable mistakes: I didn't go flat out into the esses (I was too scared), and I went too fast into the kink at the end of the backstraight, pushing wide of the line by about half a car length, in total, I think my mistakes cost me about .5 seconds. Still, I ran my fastest lap of the day, a 1:48.6! But Art pulled off a 1:47.5xx, getting me by more than a second, so even though I made some mistakes, I don't think I would have caught him if I was totally clean.

I really think it's time for me to stop being a bitch, and loosen up the car for trials. I have an (un)natural fear of snap oversteer offs, so I know I'm running the car w/ too much rear-grip. If I can get used to hanging the rear-end out a little, I'm sure the car would corner at much higher speeds, and bring my lap times down.

[sybir]

Glad to hear they're working, man, they sound like a killer budget option (at least in terms of track-quality stuff)

[AtomicLabMonkey]

Originally Posted by sperry

The suspension is awesome. About eleventy billion times better than those blown Konis.

Sweet.

Originally Posted by sperry

Sunday morning I went back to my 20mm rear bar and it really helped the car turn... but I'd like to avoid tuning the balance w/ swaybars, and do it "right" with spring/damper rate.

I wouldn't shy away from tuning balance with bars. Ideally I'd tend to worry more about finding the best spring & damper rates for ideal compliance & overall grip on that particular track, and then trim the handling balance with the bars, alignment, aero, etc.

They're also obviously just one of the simplest & easiest ways to make balance adjustments at the track, which has its own value...

Originally Posted by sperry

For the alignment the car came out at:

Front -3.0 camber, +5.0 caster, 0.0 toe
Rear -2.2 camber, 0.0 toe

I will probably go to -3.5 camber in the front, and accept the little toe-out that comes with it, as the car needs a touch more front-end bite, and since I can use the differental setting under braking to dial-out the twitch that comes from toe-out.

That alignment looks like what I'd roughly expect. On the yellow car we were using 2-4mm toe-out in the front to get the car to turn in, and typically 2mm toe-in rear for stability (once we switched to the IRS). I also had the bumpsteer response tuned where I wanted it in front and rear, and could adjust them with different thickness spacers. The rear bumpsteer had a large effect on mid-corner to corner-exit behavior as power was applied. Course, it was a RWD car...

Originally Posted by sperry

Like I said, I think I want a bit more rear spring rate... but I can probably achieve the same effect by going softer at the front... better to add grip to the front, than to remove grip at the rear to tune the handling, right? 650f/550r, or 550f/550r might be close to what I need.

It's usually better to add grip rather than take it away, just keep in mind what roll stiffness changes will do to your dynamic camber. Take a look at your hot tire temps & pressures for some insight; if you've already got a nice even temp spread across the tires (5-10*F hotter on inside than outside) then you can probably tolerate some extra roll and softening the front could work well. If you don't have a nice temp spread, it might not work. Also, how you measure the tire temps is critical.

I don't know how you're doing it now, but you really need to have 1-2 people waiting for you on pit road with the pyrometer & a clipboard; it goes faster if 1 person measures and shouts the numbers to the other person writing it all down. You pull in immediately off a hot lap (no cool down time at all if possible), stop on pit road and have them measure temps first, starting with the outside front tire, and then pressures second. Seconds count here as far as getting an accurate measurement; if the track has a really long pit road (like cali speedway) your crew needs to be near the pit entrance, not exit or the data will be junk.

Originally Posted by sperry

I really think it's time for me to stop being a bitch, and loosen up the car for trials. I have an (un)natural fear of snap oversteer offs, so I know I'm running the car w/ too much rear-grip. If I can get used to hanging the rear-end out a little, I'm sure the car would corner at much higher speeds, and bring my lap times down.

I think that's a pretty natural fear. It's a bad feeling in the pit of your stomach when the car starts rotating around at high speed. There was only one time I ever got nervous riding along in the yellow car, and it was during some bad high speed oversteer. Croutcher was driving while we were testing some different rear shocks at Buttonwillow CW, and one set would throw the ass up in the air coming out of the esses when you touched the berm. After a few laps he really clipped that last berm hard right at the apex (I think we were going 100+mph at that point on the track) and the rear got light and started slowly (in that time-slowing-down-impending-car-wreck sort of way) rotating around towards my side, sliding towards the dirt...

I had enough time to look over to my right at the dirt and rocks, think about how long we had been sliding, and realize that it was probably going to hurt when we went off sideways, dug in and rolled over. Fortunately Mike kept his foot in it, steered it back straight enough and we only clipped the dirt and kept going.

So I guess the moral of this story is, do you have a roll cage and a real harness yet?